I’m a feminist with a trans son AMA

[Fraida]

I’m a long-standing member of MN (since 2006 when my eldest child was born) but have named changed more recently!

So I have a 14 year old who is FTM trans person and two other younger children. My son came out officially as trans earlier this year but has been exploring his gender identity since he was about eight. This has been an interesting journey for us all as DH and I have always prided ourselves on allowing all of our children to be individuals and trying to help them not get sucked into cultural norms from a gender perspective I.e. a saying in our house is there is no such thing as boys things and girls things just things Like what you like and don’t get bogged down by what society might expect of you. For a while my middle child - a boy - had the longest hair in the house and loves horse riding both things typically associated with girls, for example.

With DS1 coming out as male I have had to rethink and relearn many of my own beliefs about gender and the whole transitioning process as Ill gladly admit I did have preconceived ideas and concerns about, for example, any gender specialists going down the route of affirmation rather than assessment as well as concerns about medication being offered too quickly. However in our experience so far this hasn’t been the case and there seems to be many more barriers and much more in the way of caution than I anticipated.

I will say however that the overwhelming negative impact on his mental health has been devastating for us all to watch with a number of suicide attempts (not uncommon) and chronic anxiety, to say the least. I do feel that whatever your views are on gender health care for children it cannot be right that psychological support and help is not more widespread and readily available.

Anyways I’m being brave because I fundamentally believe that dialogue is important and active listening in order to truly hear what opposing views are is really important in such a sensitive area. So here I am, happy to debate and answer questions but please don’t insult me as I am a sensitive human at the end of the computer

And I'm pretty sure the declassification of dysphoria as a mental health condition was only done under huge pressure from Stonewall, Mermaids and quite possibly pharmaceutical companies too, behind the scenes. You can easily see how cyclical it is.

That is another challenge for parents - changing society and expectations takes time
This is a challenge that ALL parents of girls have to take on, though. And all parents of children with SEND (my DS has ADHD and my word, the expectations around what boys will do, what children with ADHD will do).
My DS would love to be able to control his behaviour and (he also has dyspraxia) he'd love to be able to write and draw like the other children in his class.
It's my job to help him to come to terms with the fact that he will never be like other children, and help him navigate the world as it is. Not pretend that he is. And I do know that some children with SEND try and act as if they don't have any difficulties, which seems to me very similar - the world is hard if you are a girl or have SEND, so maybe it would be better if you weren't.

I also have a DD who is mixed race living in a society where white, blonde is the beauty standard. I'd love to tell her "hey, wave a magic wand, you don't feel mixed race so you aren't" but it doesn't work like that.

I'd love for society not to hypersexualise black and brown women, but instead, I have to help my DD navigate that when she's older.

@FamilyOfAliens

But that is what you come across when you start trying to access information, and it sometimes (from a parental perspective) feels unhelpful and scary.

You see, that’s why I don’t understand you posting the Stonewall suicide stats on here as fact.

You sound like you’re accessing a lot of information about this issue, so you must have been aware that Stonewall is a trans lobbying group, and as such, has an agenda. Of course they are going to claim that trans people are more vulnerable than any other group and if that means pushing discredited suicide stats, so be it.

I don’t really view them as trans lobbying only but lobbying for the LGBT community as a whole?

I genuinely was not aware that the stats had been discredited, but this kind of proves my point that when your priority is to quickly access the right info for your child you don’t have the time to sit down and critically analyse everything you need in depth. It’s easy to get frozen and indecisive because you have no idea who is telling the truth as it were or not.

Assuming that not everyone who has a child that comes out as trans is knowledgeable and knows where to look where on earth do you start??

He moved on as he felt although is was and still is attracted to girls this was not about his sexuality but about gender.

But your child knows that many Lesbians are happily gender non conforming right? So it's about dysphoria. But we can't consider dysphoria a mental health issue, you state? In which case alternative narratives like psychotherapy can't be considered then? Just trying to understand.

@drspouse

That is another challenge for parents - changing society and expectations takes time This is a challenge that ALL parents of girls have to take on, though. And all parents of children with SEND (my DS has ADHD and my word, the expectations around what boys will do, what children with ADHD will do). My DS would love to be able to control his behaviour and (he also has dyspraxia) he'd love to be able to write and draw like the other children in his class. It's my job to help him to come to terms with the fact that he will never be like other children, and help him navigate the world as it is. Not pretend that he is. And I do know that some children with SEND try and act as if they don't have any difficulties, which seems to me very similar - the world is hard if you are a girl or have SEND, so maybe it would be better if you weren't.

I also have a DD who is mixed race living in a society where white, blonde is the beauty standard. I'd love to tell her "hey, wave a magic wand, you don't feel mixed race so you aren't" but it doesn't work like that.

I'd love for society not to hypersexualise black and brown women, but instead, I have to help my DD navigate that when she's older.

You are right it is a challenge not just for parents of trans kids... I have dyspraxia as does my middle child, I grew up in a deaf family too so understand the challenge of navigating the world when it’s not quite set up for you and your own needs.

The declassification of GD as a mental illness was a bonkers move.
It’s clearly a mental illness, but the pressure to see it as similar to sexuality has been a huge focus from Stonewall in the last few years.

One day we’ll look back at this period in shock, that all of this was allowed to happen and the damage it has done. And someone will no doubt say “where were the feminists”

You start here, op. Are you new to Mumsnet? Probably more balanced discussion of ROGD here over the past 4 years than anywhere else.

@RuffleCrow

And I'm pretty sure the declassification of dysphoria as a mental health condition was only done under huge pressure from Stonewall, Mermaids and quite possibly pharmaceutical companies too, behind the scenes. You can easily see how cyclical it is.

I’m not sure of the history to be honest I just know that it provides this loophole which makes it harder to access appropriate care and support for your child.

I suppose the argument would be that gender dysphoria itself is not a problem but the reactions of others too it and how it makes you feel about yourself. Crudely speaking a bit like sexuality - being gay is not a mental health condition but it could cause one if the person felt isolated, persecuted and unsupported?

OP it concerns me that you are genuinely considering whether your child is the opposite sex. By any normal definition your child is female and will always be female. How are you defining male and female?

Also just to reiterate what a PP said - even Mermaids are now saying that no child is "born in the wrong body". There is literally no evidence for this. I disagree with other posters talking about "wrong body maps". When people experience phantom limbs or feel e.g. a leg is not part of their body you can see this clearly demonstrated in MRI scans. All these studies, all this technology and we've never seen MRI scans that prove the "born in the wrong body" theory. Which is why these trans charities are moving away from it now.

@RuffleCrow

You start here, op. Are you new to Mumsnet? Probably more balanced discussion of ROGD here over the past 4 years than anywhere else.

I’ve been here for 14 years

Chance my name usually once or twice a year for security purposes.. paranoid DH

I don’t really view them as trans lobbying only but lobbying for the LGBT community as a whole?

If only that were true!

Back in the day, Stonewall was the go-to campaigning group for lesbians and gay men. Once same-sex marriage was legalised, they had no real place in the campaigning world, so they reinvented themselves as a trans lobby group.

One example of how they changed focus was when they actively campaigned to have single-sex exemptions removed from the Equality Act 2010. They are unrecognisable from the organisation I supported in the 80s.

I haven't had time to read the whole thread @Fraida but I will in time and just wanted to thank you for entering into dialogue about it. It sounds as if you and your child have had a really difficult time. You are obviously thinking very carefully about how you proceed and, while I have my own concerns about the increasing prevalence of FTM transition, I feel you've had quite a hard time from other posters on here.

Interestingly within my 12YO dd's small friendship group (at a girls school), 2 of 6 are trans, have changed their names, bought binders and are very vocal about trans rights. Both came out as lesbians before saying they were trans and one of them has serious mental health problems that were apparent before they expressed a desire to transition. Although of course the mental health problems could be related to dysphoria that they hadn't expressed before, I do worry that it is the other way round and that actually transitioning is being seen as a cure-all when this very vulnerable young person has some much wider problems that need addressing. I'm also aware that they spend a lot of of unsupervised time online and are heavily influenced by the wider trans community.

Anyway, I wish you all the very best wherever you go from here.

Crudely speaking a bit like sexuality - being gay is not a mental health condition but it could cause one if the person felt isolated, persecuted and unsupported?

I think this is where the problem lies.
Sexuality requires nothing of other people. Just acceptance or turn a blind eye if you don’t like it.

Trans is nothing like this, it requires people to be complicit in something that demonstrably isn’t true. Trans activism is changing female language and single sex rights at an alarming rate. If it was a simple case of acceptance there wouldn’t be any issue.

@HecatesCats

He moved on as he felt although is was and still is attracted to girls this was not about his sexuality but about gender.

But your child knows that many Lesbians are happily gender non conforming right? So it's about dysphoria. But we can't consider dysphoria a mental health issue, you state? In which case alternative narratives like psychotherapy can't be considered then? Just trying to understand.

Absolutely, I think he would rather be a non confirming lesbian and has said as much but that doesn’t work or ‘fit’.

Dysphoria is no longer considered a mental health disorder rather the impact of it on your mental health is (in the UK another sure about elsewhere). The impact of this is that tier 3 CAMHS so your local mental health team cannot directly tackle this in community only the impact of it on your mental health. This puts parents in a very challenging situation as naturally most of us would want our children to explore their feelings and thoughts carefully before referring on to more specialist services. This is why my husband and I made the decision to pay for support and therapy that would explore everything and not just try and put a sticking plaster on a broken leg! There’s no point CAMHS just providing emotional coping strategy sessions if they don’t look at what is causing the underlying distress!

Personally i experienced dysphoria as a result of repressing same sex attraction due to homophobia and i know i'm far from alone in that OP, so i resent that comparison.

So does the fact that dysphoria cannot be considered a mental health issue (largely because of political pressure) delay access to treatment that favours a psychological approach rather than a trans affirmative model?

@PaperScissorsRock

Crudely speaking a bit like sexuality - being gay is not a mental health condition but it could cause one if the person felt isolated, persecuted and unsupported?

I think this is where the problem lies.
Sexuality requires nothing of other people. Just acceptance or turn a blind eye if you don’t like it.

Trans is nothing like this, it requires people to be complicit in something that demonstrably isn’t true. Trans activism is changing female language and single sex rights at an alarming rate. If it was a simple case of acceptance there wouldn’t be any issue.

Possibly.. but what about the right to marriage? Some religious folk were vehemently against this particularly the right to marry in church (by the way I am an atheist so do not agree with this at all!) and had very strong views based on the biblical idea of marriage being about a man and woman. This required more than acceptance and turning a blind eye but actually change perceptions and views on what marriage means.

In terms of language and so on, my DS knows I’m not comfortable with the word used to describe biological men/women. He probably thinks I’m being a bit sensitive and I think it’s unnecessary! (Haven’t used the word as I haven’t read the mumsnet guidelines on talking about trans stuff and I don’t want to fall foul of the rules!) From the limited experience I have had with trans people the ones I have met just want to crack on with their lives and have no interest in causing distress to anyone who is not trans. The main sticking point is respecting use of pronouns and name but beyond that there is much flexibility around language.

@RuffleCrow

Personally i experienced dysphoria as a result of repressing same sex attraction due to homophobia and i know i'm far from alone in that OP, so i resent that comparison.

I’m genuinely sorry to hear that @RuffleCrow and apologise if I have offended you. Which comment of mine where you referring to?

@Butterer strikes me there needs to be much more dialogue around the areas of concern that you have listed. Trans women are vulnerable in their own right as are trans men, in my mind it feels like it’s not about taking away rights but adding to them if that makes sense?

I’m pretty sure that most trans women (and men) would not want women to feel that they were losing hard won single sex rights.

I do worry about DS using the men’s toilets, I’ll be honest it makes me very nervous even though I know he feels more comfortable using that space and hasn’t so far experienced any problems in there!

@Butterer

Trigger warning: I don't know what the name for this is (other than trauma), but after I was sexually assaulted as an adult l, I couldn't cope with bathing/having to touch my own body. Periods were horrible because I didn't want to go near that area, and often thought that if I could remove my vagina etc (magically, not by surgery, mind), I would cope better with being trapped in a body that had so many bad physical associations/memories and triggered me.

Not sure why i didn't reject my breast as well though. I wanted to be anything other than a woman with the associated physical vulnerabilities.

It's not comparable to being trans, but it was a form of horror towards my own body.

That’s sounds awful and horribly traumatic @Butterer

Was there anything that helped you through that experience specifically?

TW.

I had a similar experience, @Butterer. However mine came with a lot of compulsive desires to clean myself and scrub my skin off, and I had a strong urge to rip off my vagina at some points (sorry brutal but it's true). I'm not trans and I fully identify with my "woman" status now, but I do empathise with transgender people as repulsion / desire to remove parts of your body is a horrible experience. Not correlating this with anything and maybe out of context, but I do think experiencing gender dysphoria must be very painful and difficult if it's anything even remotely similar.

Ditto, Butterer.

It's not comparable to bring trans.

Functionally, it's sex dysphoria. Which isn't synonymous with 'trans'.

@berrygirlie

TW.

I had a similar experience, @Butterer. However mine came with a lot of compulsive desires to clean myself and scrub my skin off, and I had a strong urge to rip off my vagina at some points (sorry brutal but it's true). I'm not trans and I fully identify with my "woman" status now, but I do empathise with transgender people as repulsion / desire to remove parts of your body is a horrible experience. Not correlating this with anything and maybe out of context, but I do think experiencing gender dysphoria must be very painful and difficult if it's anything even remotely similar.

Sounds very similar... DS has self harmed on his breasts. Awful to see that much distress in a child [child]