I’m a fairly secular Muslim: Ask me anything

[Byemelania]

I probably won’t know the answer but I’ll try

@BlackWaveComing oh I will thanks for the tip.

@SimonJT yes! Some of those sound familiar...I think people have gotten better now. Your parents must have a fascinating story! And the food at home must be sooooooo delicious :)

@Strawberry4561 they have both, and code switch. We all do :)

Someone asked why I used term veil I think, it was because I was so tired I couldn’t remember the word hijab at 1am that all :)

you and your fellow Muslims sounds offensive to me, but maybe I’m sensitive.

Why do you find it offensive?

And yes smart people are able to acknowledge the history of colonisation across all cultures. We are talking about European colonialism here, the consequences of which are relevant today.

Yes but I was asking about Islamic conquest, colonialism and slavery in particular. The consequences of which are even more relative today, as slavery still exists in some Islamic countries

sometimes it seems Hebdo is a bunch of Privileged white men and women shooting down at disadvantaged people, whose “flaws” are beyond their control because of a history of enslavement and persecution

Which history of enslavement and persecution? Western or Islamic?

Are you saying historical colonialism and slavery are an excuse for our own flaws today? It seems that you're using it as an excuse

Why the hell should muslims publicly denounce rhe actions of others just because they claim to be from the same religion? A white man undertook me on the motorway this morning almost killing me, so will every white man here please stand up and publicly denounce his actions?
How fucking stupid to expect that.
Also I know not one Muslim who practices or believes in FGM and I know a lot of Muslims having been raised in a Muslim area and previously married to one.
Fgm is mainly practiced in Africa and Christian Africans at that..I know some Muslim countries do it too but whys it always pushed towards being a Muslim problem? Its really not.
Sorry op, not questions for you but threads like this always make my blood boil because you clearly see the ignorance in people..there was a thread with a Jewish woman not long ago and the ignorance on that one was astounding to me.

@zanahoria

the koran says it is OK for a man to beat his wife, why would any woman want to be in that religion?

As does the bible. Would you ask a Christian the same question?

As does the bible. Would you ask a Christian the same question

The UK is a secular country, our laws although historically based on the old testament, are now completely separated from the bible by enlightenment values and secular civic rights.

Sharia law, to a larger or lesser extent depending on the country or community, is still based in Islamic teaching. There is not the same degree of separation.

In parts of Pakistan for example a thief, even a child thief, can still be subject to local community punishment based on extremely harsh Islamic law. A woman can be ordered by a Sharia style court to return to an abusive husband. Infact Sharia court judgements in the UK have been known to suggest an abused wife return to her husband.

Why the hell should muslims publicly denounce rhe actions of others just because they claim to be from the same religion? A white man undertook me on the motorway this morning almost killing me, so will every white man here please stand up and publicly denounce his actions?
How fucking stupid to expect that

"White man" isn't a religion. If atrocities and terrorism are being carried out by persons who claim their religion justifies it it's hardly unreasonable for someone of that religion to say, no it's not done in my name or my cause. Wouldn't you want to distance yourself from a murderer claiming to kill in your religion? Christians distance themselves from extremists like Westbro Baptist church.

Hi OP, thanks for sharing your story on here.
My wife was born in Iran and came to the UK in her twenties. She is a Muslim, but not overtly so. She doesn't wear hejab or go to a mosque, she does drink wine and eat pork sometimes. Her family in Iran are quite moderate, her late father gave his permission for us to marry. We had our 30th anniversary this year.
Sorry to hear about the racism you have suffered, my wife has experienced the same thing. When I was working for a large firm in London at the time of 9/11, a couple of colleagues said I supported the attacks because I was married to an Iranian - pretty disgusting behaviour by any standards.
A lot of people don't realise, that Muslims come in different shades, from very moderate to ultra extremist, and that more Muslims are killed by Islamic extremism than other people around the World.

Also I know not one Muslim who practices or believes in FGM and I know a lot of Muslims having been raised in a Muslim area and previously married to one.

If you live in the UK you're unlikely to know anyone. The barbaric practice FGM is carried out in secret

Fgm is mainly practiced in Africa and Christian Africans at that..I know some Muslim countries do it too but whys it always pushed towards being a Muslim problem? Its really not.

By far and away, the country in Africa where FGM is mostly practiced is Egypt. A Muslim country

@Flaxmeadow

As does the bible. Would you ask a Christian the same question

The UK is a secular country, our laws although historically based on the old testament, are now completely separated from the bible by enlightenment values and secular civic rights.

Sharia law, to a larger or lesser extent depending on the country or community, is still based in Islamic teaching. There is not the same degree of separation.

In parts of Pakistan for example a thief, even a child thief, can still be subject to local community punishment based on extremely harsh Islamic law. A woman can be ordered by a Sharia style court to return to an abusive husband. Infact Sharia court judgements in the UK have been known to suggest an abused wife return to her husband.

There are many, many deeply conservative Christian societies that continue to observe the bible with an equal godlike approach.

Children are still thrown out of the family home for being gay or sent to reform schools, girls are refused further education or careers due to their place being at home, boys are disciplined for showing emotion.

We see the UK a diversified, liberal western country that has taken hundreds of years of reform under a diplomatic government. Religion is nowhere near as important as it was a hundred, even fifty years ago. The separation of church and state is a collosal luxury that most countries can only dream of.

To compare the UK's views to that of Pakistan, a country very much in its developmental and political infancy, is incomparable. You find countries in the deep south-east are still in the raptures of sectarianism, most often than not, because their people have been sent there by pogroms - their religion is what binds them. Pakistan is a very good example, Muslims were driven from India during the early 20th century therefore they are still bound by religious rule. They have not lived long enough without conflict to broaden their approach.

There are many countries which are traditionally governed by Christian rule that still pale in comparison the UK laws - religion has nothing to do with it. China is an example, they currently have concentration camps to intern Muslims.

The usage and the utilisation of religious law very often has little to do with its peoples and much to do with the handful of rulers in charge who find ruling with oppression is the most effective way to govern. If it isn't broken, don't fix it.

Does every Christian, Jew, Hindu, Sikh etc agree with all teachings in their religion? Of course not, the same as many Muslims do not.

@Byemelania thanks for the thread, it's been very interesting and you've been extremely patient with the casual racism that's been displayed.

There are many, many deeply conservative Christian societies that continue to observe the bible with an equal godlike approach.

But the OP is from the UK

Children are still thrown out of the family home for being gay or sent to reform schools, girls are refused further education or careers due to their place being at home, boys are disciplined for showing emotion.

But in the UK we have specific laws to prevent these abuses against Gay people

We see the UK a diversified, liberal western country that has taken hundreds of years of reform under a diplomatic government. Religion is nowhere near as important as it was a hundred, even fifty years ago. The separation of church and state is a collosal luxury that most countries can only dream of.

Yes but it isn't a luxury. I see it more as our hard fought for secular freedoms.

To compare the UK's views to that of Pakistan, a country very much in its developmental and political infancy, is incomparable.

That would depend on where you live in the UK. I live in an area with a high Muslim population in the north of England. Where segregation by religion and sex, and anti secular religious systems of law often prevail across large neighbourhoods. This is based on male dominated religious dogma. Not only that, but I'm often told that I have no right to discuss it because I'm not a Mulsim, even though it impacts the lives of those around me, both Muslim and non Muslim on an everyday basis

You find countries in the deep south-east are still in the raptures of sectarianism, most often than not, because their people have been sent there by pogroms - their religion is what binds them.

Where is this is. The south east of which country?

Pakistan is a very good example, Muslims were driven from India during the early 20th century therefore they are still bound by religious rule. They have not lived long enough without conflict to broaden their approach.

With respect, this is not my country's problem.

There are many countries which are traditionally governed by Christian rule that still pale in comparison the UK laws - religion has nothing to do with it. China is an example, they currently have concentration camps to intern Muslims.

Again this is not the UK

The usage and the utilisation of religious law very often has little to do with its peoples and much to do with the handful of rulers in charge who find ruling with oppression is the most effective way to govern. If it isn't broken, don't fix it.

Yes that was my point. This can be dominant in a large country down to an urban neighbourhood

Does every Christian, Jew, Hindu, Sikh etc agree with all teachings

No but Islam in the west seems to increasingly have anti western values, a dogmatic inflexible heavily conservative influence and censorship, under the guise of blasphemy, of any discussion around it.

"No but Islam in the west seems to increasingly have anti western values, a dogmatic inflexible heavily conservative influence and censorship, under the guise of blasphemy, of any discussion around it."

I think that may be down to the particular communities rather than Muslims as a whole. We know people in the UK/Iranian community, have been to concerts, eaten out with them and they are very chilled out. I wouldn't expect the same thing to be true of the Muslims living in Rotherham or Bury Park in Luton.
It also probably doesn't help that the West has attacked various Muslim countries - Iraq (1996 and 2003), Afghanistan, Iran (1981 helping Iraq), Libya, Syria, Somalia.

For people spouting about nasty anti-western muslims, please remember that these are like TRAs. Not everyone is like them and people who just want to settle down and live nice ordinary lives get ignored because they are being quiet and boring.

I think that may be down to the particular communities rather than Muslims as a whole.

I'm not entirely sure of the difference

We know people in the UK/Iranian community, have been to concerts, eaten out with them and they are very chilled out. I wouldn't expect the same thing to be true of the Muslims living in Rotherham or Bury Park in Luton

But we should expect it.

The same western passtimes are true of some Muslims in those areas anyway. I know Muslims who take their family to local pubs like Wetherspoons for meals. During the "eat out to help out" our table in the pub was next to a number of young Pakistani families dining and some having a beer too. But the problem is these, usually more middle class and educated, Muslims are often looked down on by their own community. Communities still steeped in conservative rural Pakistani Muslim male dominated tradition or increasingly under the strict codes of Arabic Muslim influence, rejecting a more colonial "British" Indian subcontinent historical tradition. This is very noticable if you've lived all your life in a UK area with a large Pakistani community

When I was young, many of the parents of my Muslim school friends, were actually proud to have been brought up under British systems of law back in Pakistan or India. Same with my friends whose parents who had come from Jamaica. They understood that colonialism has a complex history and was not always the evil empire it is now made out to be

We have extreme christian sects in the UK?!

There is s large one local to me. Closed off. Strange rules. It's own schools.

Loads of other issues with that post. I think many people don't really look into stuff before making these sort of statements.. Or they assume that everyone is like them and the people they know. Or something.

That's a statement not a question!

There's one near me they definitely exist!

Not sure where the ? came from I'm on phone.

Yes, the OP is from the UK, as are we, but you brought up Pakistan.

No, these things happen in the UK every single day. I went to high school with a boy who was kicked out of his home and shunned from his family and community because his Mum found he had gay magazines under his bed. He lived with school friends for a while but ultimately ended up in care - his parents were never charged with anything.

An act being protected by law doesn't mean it doesn't happen. It happens to a degree every day, every outlook we have is based on Christian views. Women as the subservient, men as the oppressor is a view that was only adopted in modern religion (all forms).

The UK's liberalism is a luxury. You were born into a country with secular freedom, that is a luxury. We've not had to fight for a thing, our ancestors did it for us - that's a luxury.

You cannot compare anywhere you live in England (I too am from the North), be-it Birmingham, Burnley, Blackburn, anywhere, as being anything like Pakistan. What particular anti-secular laws are so prevalent? I would say that is down to a particular community, absolutely not religion.

Sorry, I can see I was vague there. I meant countries in the deep South-East of the UK, Turkey, Iraq, Syria, Iran, Saudi Arabia, Afghanistan, Pakistan etc. Even in Russia.

I disagree entirely. It is entirely our country's problem because our country is the reason that it happened! We colonised the entire world and formed tiers of systems who we judged being higher and lower in society. The Muslims in India are a great example of this, Hindus who were lighter-skinned were regarded by the British as being higher in society. When Britain withdrew from India in the 40's such idealised resumed and Muslims were sent to live in Pakistan because there had been such a divide created by the English! How is that not our country's problem?

You regard our political and religious freedoms as our 'hard-fought-for secular rights' when in reality, the reason so many other countries a further behind democratically was because they were colonised and enslaved by the British. Their 'hard-fought-for secular rights' are their freedoms, which came at the expense of our own economy. We grew in wealth on the backs of poorer countries whom we had enslaved.

We cannot now decide we do not wish to become enshrined in world politics now that the Empire is over, it doesn't work like that when countries all across the world are picking up the pieces of our occupation.

I'm sorry, I really don't understand how you can draw the comparison of a dictatorship that spans across countries to a handful of communities in Northern England - it really is in no way the same.

I'm unsure what your experience of Islam in the West is but I have not found one approach where they are 'anti-west'. They would not be in the west if they were anti-west, they would live in a country where the word of Islam/Sharia law was upheld by an unquestionably autocratic Muslim ruler.

Your experiences seem to be based on one particular community rather than a religion as a whole. In our locality, there is one awful group of families who are amongst the most repugnant people I've ever met. They are homophobic, rude, ignorant, racist, sexist and downright bloody rude, yet my Mum would see them in her church every Sunday. Does their religion have an impact on who they are as people? No, they're just arseholes. They would still be arseholes whatever religion they are.

We cannot all be tarred by the same brush because we read from the same book.

@NiceGerbil

We have extreme christian sects in the UK?!

There is s large one local to me. Closed off. Strange rules. It's own schools.

Loads of other issues with that post. I think many people don't really look into stuff before making these sort of statements.. Or they assume that everyone is like them and the people they know. Or something.

With respect NiceGerbil you've mentioned this a lot. Don't you think this is an outlier?

Sure it's not common but I don't like it when people make blankets statements that are simply not true.

I think a lot of it depends on where you live. In my area it's not uncommon to see people who adhere to fundamental Christian or Jewish groups and have certain clothing rules and keep themselves as separate as possible around the place.

I do think a lot of people simply don't really know that as in most areas probably it's not seen at all. And then they make pretty sweeping statements.

It also can't be that many Muslims across the UK who wear a niqab for example, against the population.

So the focus on them all the time seems a bit odd.

(Well it doesn't we know why it is!)

I'm probably not expressing this very well tbh! Sorry about that.

@NiceGerbil

It also can't be that many Muslims across the UK who wear a niqab for example, against the population.

So the focus on them all the time seems a bit odd.

(Well it doesn't we know why it is!)

I rarely see anyone wearing a niqab in the city I live in - although that might be down to the fact it's a very white city (yes I know Islam is a faith not a religion and it is possible to be white and Muslim)

I certainly see a lot more when I'm in London.