I am Jewish AMA

[Bells3032]

Following answering some Q&As on a thread about the programme Unorthodox thought i'd do an AMA here. I have looked and don't think there's been one since like 2018.

I am a traditional/modern orthodox Jew so not Hasidic like the show but I actually do talks on Judaism as part of my job and I so my knowledge is fairly good and I am rarely embarrassed or offended by questions.

So go ahead AMA

@AnnaJKing this is what they said (I am not making it up). It struck me as odd so it has stayed with me. We were about 15 at the time. This is a fair few decades ago now though. Maybe things have changed? Also, they were I think all first-generation British born with Holocaust surviving parents. Would that make a difference do you think?

I have no idea. My upbringing was basically secular, I was isolated from other Jews and didn’t meet any outside family until adulthood.

When I can see my grandfather again I might ask him what he thinks about it.

@NewModelArmyMayhem18 there are a lot of references to nation of Israel in our prayers but it refers to the Jewish people. They were probably zionists, which almost all religious Jews are.

In orthodox Judaism, you have to consider the prospect of making Aliyah or immigrating to Israel. Most orthodox Jews never do it but it meant to be the ideal. Amongst liberal and secular Jews, it's popular as well. So yes Jews are an ethnic group but most have very strong ties and affinity towards Israel.

Even before the modern State of Israel existed, Jews always considered ourselves to be a nation. A nation without a State. In our Bible and our liturgy there are frequent references to Am Yisrael: the Nation of Israel. Am is a singular noun meaning 'people' in the context of a unified group, rather than a collection of individuals (anashim).

Before the creation of modern Israel, Jews were always aware of their precarious condition as citizens of countries that never quite fully accepted them. Since the horrors of the 2nd World War, generations have grown up greater security than their ancestors. We now have somewhere to go, a nation state that will stand up for us and not consider us weird, suspect and dispensable. The concept of nationality has been loosened, in a way, and tied closer to citizenship of a specific country.

Jews are not the only disenfranchised people for whom nationhood was not tied to citizenship. I think Native Americans and Canadian First Peoples also consider themselves to be nations.

@Desiringonlychild

I don’t disagree that criticism of Israel is often thinly veiled anti-semitism. I also don’t disagree that Israel comes in for more criticism than a lot of other countries with equally horrific human rights atrocities to their name.

However, I have to take exception to your assertion that People NEVER criticise the government (which would be fine), they criticize the whole country. they criticise the state of israel for existing, and that is not ok

There are plenty of people who criticise the government of Israel (and rightly so) for their treatment of the Palestinian people, but still wholeheartedly support the Israeli people and their right to have a Jewish state.

I think when we use words like never we are getting onto shaky ground because we’re saying that all criticism of Israel is wrong and that is blatantly not true.

@JellyTotsGrewTooBig I do agree that some people do criticise the government and not the people. And yes the israeli government does very dodgy things i.e. settlements.

The problem with a lot of criticism of israel is that every time there is an attack on gaza, israel is immediately condemned. I am not disputing that the israeli government uses disproportionate amount of force. I am not saying arabs are not facing systemic discrimination. there are all these issues. But in any other country's situation, when there is an attack on your people, you have to fight back. The people would expect you to because they are scared. Hence obviously they continue to support far right figures like Netanyahu because he looks 'strong'.

George Bush/Tony Blair started an illegal war against Iraq even though there was absolutely no evidence that Iraq had nuclear warheads. However when israel fights back against rocket attacks, its branded as this rogue state.

The palestinians deserve their own nation state, its a sad situation. But Israelis also deserve peace and security.

@Elladisenchanted

The problem is so many many times the people criticising Israel are using that as a very thinly veiled excuse for anti semitism, and when it happens often enough, there comes a point where you can't help but be suspicious of motives. There are definitely some genuine people but often it comes down to an aggressive tone and verbal attacking rather than a real desire to engage in discussion and conversation on what is a highly complex situation.

It's not an exact parallel, but my biggest problem with MN is the rampant anti-Americanism that is considered perfectly acceptable here. And it goes well beyond criticism of the government to people feeling that it's okay to call Americans thick, ignorant, rude, loud, narrow minded religious zealots, etc.

@missconductus I hear. Its not OK. I guess it's I kind of othering... People are building themselves up at the expense of others I think.

Thank you for that. I think it's gotten worse since the pandemic. This was probably the worst thread I've seen for anti-Americanism in a long time, with lots of comments flagged off.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/3883966-to-think-we-really-are-2-completely-different-cultures-the-USA-and-the-UK-just-looking-at-the-rebellion-taking-place

But I've also seen it on a regular basis in the almost three years I've been on MN. The Labour Party in the UK normalized anti-Americanism just as they normalized open hostility to Israel, and by extension, Jewish people.

Genuine question: is anti Israeli sentiment not understandable? Thousands of Palestinians (Christians and muslims) have been killed, tortured (including children), imprisoned, had their homes destroyed and new settlements built illegally over them under the name of 'the right to return', just because they are Jewish. I am anti -zionist, but don't consider myself anti-Semitic at all. There are lots of Zionist Christians and anti-Zionist jews. I openly criticisize the government and any other state which supports them, and in honesty I would criticise any person who goes there and thinks it's their right to remove the rights of a Palestinian person just because they are Jewish. The very notion of this all being legitimized by God is even worse I think. And I genuinely do not mean that in a hostile or aggressive way at all.

It sounds like you think a bunch of Jews just turned up one day and announced they were taking over.

The massive roles of the British government and the UN are always completely overlooked when the establishment of modern Israel is discussed.

@AnnaJKing I am very au fait with the history and yes I totally agree about the UK'sand UN's role. Anyway I don't wish to derail what is a very interesting thread, but I wanted to highlight that anti-Israeli sentiment is not necessarily anti-Semitic.

You don't need to use the mikveh after menopause, but would you be allowed to do so anyway?

What is your favourite Jewish holiday and how does your family celebrate it?

@paininthepoinsettia you seem to be talking about settlers. Settlers are a different kettle of fish to most Israelis. I think of them a bit like brexiters, not all Brits are brexiters.

I once met a settler at a shabbat dinner and honestly talking to her is like talking to a brexiter. Not that she wasn't nice. Some brexiters are nice too. But talking to and persuading them to see things from a different pov is like hitting your head against a brick wall.

A lot of Zionists are not religious or believe in God. As a liberal jew, I don't believe I am called to live in Israel or I deserve the land. I am quite happy living in the diaspora without the problems of living in Israel. But I believe there should be a place where a Jewish soul can roam free, where Jews can be Jews, where you don't need to apply for annual leave to observe Yom Kippur. After all the years of wandering, Jews deserve a homeland just like the Kurds also deserve a homeland. After 68 years that homeland is Israel. It is up to Israelis and Jews to be responsible stewards of the land. In the siddur of liberal Judaism, there is a prayer for Israel

And may we through our loving attachment to the land remain unprejudiced and clear in our pursuit of peace and justice. Let justice roll down like waters and righteousness like an overflowing stream

Amen to that desiring!

I want to ask about the mikveh, is it open 24/7 and does the checker get paid? Do you need to have a bath after sex too?

@pikespeaked I don't really know - I don't think it's a case of not being allowed to use it I just can't imagine people would as its specifically a service for post nida. It wouldn't really occur to people to do so I don't think.

@paininthepoinsettia no you dip in the mikva after nightfall which obviously varies during the year,so it's open from an hour before nightfall to allow women to bathe and get ready Til late. The mikva attendants in Manchester are not paid (I don't think). We do pay to use the mikva, but that's to cover the costs of running it (fresh towels for each lady, running the laundry, shampoo, shower gel, nail polish remover etc) heating for the mikva water, building costs etc. I know in one mikva they tell you the cost but emphasise that if its too much you just pay what you can afford (or nothing I assume). It's not expensive.

@paininthepoinsettia sorry missed the last question - no we don't need to have a bath after sex.

no we don't need to have a bath after sex.

I think a shower is better anyway.

Is the mikveh visit supposed to be secret, hence after nightfall? Would there ever be a case that you didn't want to go on a certain day as a particular woman you didn't like was the checker? Maybe she is known to gossip etc and you don't want it revealed to all that you have a birth mark on your bum or something...

@paininthepoinsettia it is meant to be private and something between you and your husband but no I don't think that's why it's after nightfall. I don't know offhand why it's done then.

No, I've never personally avoided the mikva because of the ladies who are attending. I know 3 of them, and they are very sincere, trustworthy and respected ladies. They are in a huge position of trust and responsibility and it's not something anyone and everyone can volunteer to do. Immersing in the mikva is regarded as a very special and holy mitzva. I guess an analogy would be you wouldn't expect your doctor to gossip about your appointment, it's understood that it is confidential and private.

It's hard to describe as it's more of an experience, there are a lot of laws around going to mikva and preparing and the 7 days preceeding, and it can be challenging but to me anyway coming home from mikva to my husband after abstaining from all physical contact for several weeks - it's something special. There's an excitement and freshness that I love and it brings my husband and I closer together.

@ofwarren my favourite festival is shavout -festival of weeks. Harvest festival and commemorates the revelation of the Torah on mount Sinai. We also traditionally read the book of Ruth (the first convert) and study all night. We also eat cheesecake (as it is said that the people of Israel did not know how to keep kashrut so they are dairy foods)

usually, I go to synagogue and learn all night. Actually , orthodox women learn and attend shiurim (classes). In my synagogue, we mainly have a quiz show, watch movies, read the book of Ruth, study a bit, have discussion classes and eat ice cream/sweets. And my synagogue also has a cheesecake making competition. I stay up all night till 6 am for the morning service. I love it.

Oh and I also get to eat my MIL's cheesecake. Its yummy.

I am a bit sad this year that this all has to be done virtually.

@ofwarren this is my favourite festival as this is the festival of bookworms, cheesecake lovers and converts. I am all 3!

@Disiringonlychild
I've been looking at Jewish food today and you definitely have some of our favourite things! Especially cheesecake 😍

Passover used to be my favourite festival. The huge build up to it, especially swapping all the dishes over (I imagine it is like what it must feel to a child in a family that celebrates Christmas, when you bring the boxes of decorations down from the loft and start putting them up), the organised chaos of the Seder, the special roles of children during the Seder, the delight from the adults when we demonstrated our learning.

The Seder is a ritual meal with the express purpose of making you ask questions, discuss and debate the story of the Exodus from Egypt. Songs, prayers, stories, rituals, foods to taste. Then a slap-up meal, followed by more songs, prayers, stories, rituals and games.

Our Seders would last for hours. We could easily sit down at 6pm and not finish till after midnight. We usually had Mum's best friend and her family, plus dm would always find 2 or 3 more people who didn't have a Seder to go to, foreign students, for example. Children regularly fell asleep at the table - nobody was sent to bed before it finished. That would be the first night. For the second night each family would go to a different friend's house for the second Seder. Which would be subtly different, with different traditions, different recipes for the same foods, and yet identical to our Seder.

And the food! Passover food is amazing! A whole separate thread would be needed to explain it. But it is lush.

Swapping all the dishes back after the week was never as much fun.