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I am Jewish AMA

857 replies

Bells3032 · 05/05/2020 13:05

Following answering some Q&As on a thread about the programme Unorthodox thought i'd do an AMA here. I have looked and don't think there's been one since like 2018.

I am a traditional/modern orthodox Jew so not Hasidic like the show but I actually do talks on Judaism as part of my job and I so my knowledge is fairly good and I am rarely embarrassed or offended by questions.

So go ahead AMA

OP posts:
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Bergmum · 31/10/2021 01:02

The charedi Community are very self sufficient so have their own special schools.
There are also a number of Jewish plumbers and electricians in stamford hill who work primarily within the community and therefore there is no concern about not working late on Friday afternoon etc.

Most haredi men in The UK do not study full time but once again mostly work within the community.

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shylatte · 31/10/2021 07:35

Bergmum that would make a lot of sense. At what age do boys leave school to take up work? I was reading an OFSTED report for the biggest school in SH and it was failing in all areas, I don't recall them even doing GCSE's. I think nowadays to do apprenticeship you have to have maths/English, so I wonder do they become informal plumbers/electricians, rather than going down the actual 'proper' path?

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onlychildhamster · 31/10/2021 07:51

@shylatte my DH went to a haredi primary school, he did not learn maths or English. He did go to a mainstream Jewish secondary school which is why he managed to get a master's degree in law.. his experience in his haredi primary school however has turned him against religion for life. He felt he did not fit in and was bullied and he ( and his sister who went to the girls school) said that it was because they weren't haredi but just plain orthodox. Like once he was out with a family friend who bought him a magnum, his teacher from school saw it and started screeching at him, his family friend (who is observant) was flabbergasted. The girls school is better academically as the girls all have to take on jobs and the girls do manage to get GCSEs and a levels.

As for whether they discriminate against less religious Jews, I would say they don't acknowledge reform Jews (my MIL once said they even prefer the secular over the reform Jews cos secular Jews can be persuaded to become more religious by showing them the beauty of shabbat but reform Jews already know about the beauty of shabbat plus have strong ideas about feminism, though this view might be unique to groups like Chabad which encourage outreach to less religious Jews).

I know that there is a special orthodox school called kisharon that a family friend's child with down syndrome goes to, there is probably a haredi equivalent.

@bergmum yes I have heard the ideal of men learning full time is harder in the UK due to lack of benefits for men who learn unlike in Israel. My DH said he met his primary school classmate from Chabad in Slice (kosher restaurant) working as a server. But my impression was that while they do work, it does work around learning and the woman is the main breadwinner. As most women in that community want to be married to a learning man but of course realistically that doesn't always happen esp when there are little mouths to feed.

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onlychildhamster · 31/10/2021 07:57

@shylatte my DH said that if he had stayed in the haredi education system, he would have become a builder (as he would not have wanted to learn full time). I am guessing that also needs qualifications these days?

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shylatte · 31/10/2021 08:30

Thank you both for the replies. @onlychildhamster what was the problem with the magnum? Yes to be a certified/regulated builder now you would need qualifications (most likely a degree!) That must have been very hard for your husband to start secondary school maths with no primary school foundation - kudos to him for doing so well.
How much are these C/Haredi schools? Also if the woman is the breadwinner, 1) what does she do and 2) how do they afford childcare for large families?

I think the Haredi community is fascinating, how they have essentially created their own independent 'villages'. Most of the documentaries I can find about them tend to be about those who have fled.

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onlychildhamster · 31/10/2021 09:00

@shylatte the thing is magnums are kosher now
www.kosher.org.uk/article/magnum-signature-chocolates but the kashrut rating for a lot of processed packaged foods can change due to change in manufacturing processes/ingredients. So I can't exclude that it wasn't kosher 20 years ago but that family friend was stricter than my MIL who is careful about such things. I think he maybe had higher standards of kashrut?

My MIL said she paid a few k for school fees in the 1990s it's probably around £12k today (someone correct me if I am wrong), MIL said it's around 50% of regular London day school. But there are also bursaries for poorer families. Most women have quite stereotypical female dominated jobs like secretary, teacher, midwife but some can have quite high powered jobs- there is a new York judge who is haredi. Haredi childcare is cheaper and a lot of yeshivas also have a long lunch break so that the men can pick the kids and give them their lunch. Jewish men (not just haredi) are much more hands on with their children, I often see them with strollers and a bunch of children. It's really at a higher rate than the general population.

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onlychildhamster · 31/10/2021 09:03

*a few k per child. My MIL could afford it for the first 2 but once it got to the third, it was harder. But a family of 4 kids is a small family by haredi standards, my DH said he has the smallest number of siblings in his class. There must be some people paying full fees as the whole system would have collapsed otherwise so some people in the community are wealthy

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shylatte · 31/10/2021 09:20

I'm really intrigued as to hoe Haredi people could go on to be tertiary sector workers and not compromise their values/beliefs? It is my understanding that there should be strict segregation of the sexes, or is there some flexibility of these rules? I have Muslim friends for example who say touching the opposite sex is forbidden, but for medical purposes it is OK, so maybe the same exemption applies here too?

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shylatte · 31/10/2021 09:34

www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-5072939,00.html

In case anyone is interested, this is the story of the Haredi judge. I'm quite sure the school she went to was the same one that Miriam Haart from MUL went to, where she claimed to have got no education, when in fact it is considered a very good school. It seems in America colleges have courses that are for the Haredi community, so she wouldn't have had to compromise her values, and most of her clients are Haredi too. I assume this doesn't exist in the UK, but it would be very helpful.

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onlychildhamster · 31/10/2021 09:51

@shylatte you can do open university courses in the UK. Also arent there online programs. You are allowed by most rabbis to use internet for work purposes.

But haredim would shy away from normal university. Simply because university life is not the kind of environment they would want their kids to be in, they were giving out condoms during my Freshers week and my room was next to a guy who had sex with a different girl everyday. I know a guy who left the haredi community because he wanted to be a scientist and go to university.

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shylatte · 31/10/2021 10:13

Yes I assumed this judge was the exception rather than the norm, and she said it herself. She credits her husband for her achievements.

I have a question about the mikvah. I know the mikvah checkers are supposed to be very confidential etc but surely (as in all faith communities) there will be a few "gossips". A Jewish girl I follow on IG did a q & a on mikvah related stuff and so many said they felt so uncomfortable being "checked", and also were always worried about people knowing they'd been to the mikvah. I got the impression they had to go after dark, is this true, and is it supposed to be a secret?

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onlychildhamster · 31/10/2021 10:27

@shylatte to be fair, the haredim do have opportunities that the secular community doesn't have. Given that they have their own community infrastructure and tend to give jobs to other haredim, there is a ton of opportunities if you look for them and jobs if you really want one..haredim have specific consumer needs that are not catered to by the general market- kosher food, Jewish musicians, Jewish bakeries, shops that sell modest clothing ,kippah and other religious items, butchers, delis, restaurants etc. They are also a captive market so if you are smart with an eye for business, you could potentially make a lot of money. If a normal person sets up a little shop,there is no obligation for her fellow neighbors to support it, they can just drive to the next town or big city. If a haredi opens a shop, firstly people like to support fellow Jews, secondly there are fewer shops that sell a similar product hence less competition. Many haredim don't have internet so they can't buy online like most people and the mainstream shops don't cater for their needs. Kosher shops can charge more as a result. My SIL's favourite pizza shop sells American style pizzas for 8.75 and chilli chips for £4.75 and this is considered reasonable for a kosher shop.It is possibly not the cheapest you can find in north london- I think Franco manca's cheaper pizzas are cheaper than that, but this restaurant is still popular with the haredim and orthodox Jews esp the children who seem to be spending a lot of their pocket money there!

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shylatte · 31/10/2021 11:35

That's great they can be creative and make money from within. If you've watched the series Strictly Kosher, the Joel guy kept repeating "it's expensive to be a Jew" and I often wondered what he meant. Perhaps the "inflation" is why.

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Bergmum · 31/10/2021 12:26

Kosher food is a lot more expensive!

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onlychildhamster · 31/10/2021 12:31

@shylatte It is expensive to be a Jew whether you are haredi or not. Your level of observance increases the costs.

Synagogue fees and burial fees- mine is £150 per year(young adult) but it will rise to £1k per year when i have a child in the religion school so DH and I spend £300 per year together, MIL's is a few hundred pounds a year as orthodox synagogues tend to be cheaper as I guess the orthodox denomination is bigger and synagogues get support from United Synagogue. Also I think richer members probably donate more.

Housing- Most Jews live in North London/Herts. I was debating between borehamwood and East Finchley when buying my property it woudl have been 400k for a 2 bed house in Borehamwood or a 2 bed flat in Finchley. I chose the flat in Finchley but even if i had moved to borehamwood which is meant to be the 'cheaper' option, it would not have been less expensive. Stamford Hill is fairly well connected and has similar prices even if it is more grotty. Basically for many Jewish areas, you are looking at 700k to a million for a house (MIL's house is worth 700k) and its quite important to live in a jewish area for the facilities.

Education: there are state jewish schools but you need to pay for the religious studies element. Its not a lot (a few hundred?) but if you have several children, I suppose it adds up. Theoretically you can not pay but i guess its not very nice. And of course haredi schools have fees

Kosher food (esp meat): the cheapest way to be jewish is to be vegetarian. You can buy veggies from aldi and check for bugs. Many Jews however love their meat and kosher meat is more expensive. Kosher restaurants are more expensive not simply because of there are fewer of them but also cos a Jew needs to supervise.

Weddings: Once read that no Jew elopes to Vegas and gets married with 2 people as witnesses. If you have more family members, it is more expensive to have a wedding, particularly if you need to cater for kosher food for all of them.

Clothing: Religious Jews dress more formally, men wear suits (esp the haredim who do so daily and even regular orthodox wear suits on shabbat), women wear modest clothes that often would not look out of place in an office. Such clothing is more expensive than a £3 sun dress from boohoo so they spend more on clothing overall. They also attend more weddings and bar mitzvahs, so have to be suitably attired for them.

Religious ritual items/misc: you need tefillin for the men, a mezuzah for every door in your house (scrolls can be quite expensive at £30 each plus you need a case), candle sticks, challah covers, kippah, kiddush cups,religious books (my MIL has a whole wall of books). More kitchen supplies. And on passover, you can only buy kosher for passover products and those seem to be more expensive than the usuals (or maybe i am just imagining it).

Charity: Jews have to give to charity even if they are very poor.

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shylatte · 01/11/2021 09:44

Sorry I have another question ☺️

I started watching a YouTube channel of a woman who converted to Orthodox Judaism. Someone was asking her about modesty, and if it was just her and her husband at home would she remove her headscarf and wear more 'revealing' clothes. Her answer was very wishy washy (I think she has a tenancy to try to avoid certain issues) but she basically said in theory she could, but there should be modesty in a Jewish home. Does this mean that she is required to be modest in front of her husband? I noticed the mum in Shtisel (which might not be the most reliable source!) always kept her hair covered at home too, so is this a requirement?

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onlychildhamster · 01/11/2021 17:26

The principle of tzniut rejects all nudity, not only in public, but also before family members at home. So there are varying degrees of observance but orthodox women generally are modest at home if they are modest outside. So she probably isn't going to be stomping around the house in micro mini shorts and a vest.

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shylatte · 01/11/2021 20:39

How do they have modest sex? 😊 I actually googled this today and something came up about a famous woman in Judaic texts saying that you should only uncover as much as a handbreadth, or something along those lines? Is this mainstream orthodox teachings?

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AnnaJKing · 01/11/2021 21:06

Actually the Talmud says the couple should be completely naked. “Modest sex” is an oxymoron. Pleasure and connection are vital.

The “doing it through a hole in a sheet” thing is a myth!

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Bergmum · 01/11/2021 23:28

Most charedi women generally dress modestly most of the time at home although in the bedroom anything goes... Or rather nothing...
And as pp there is no modest sex

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shylatte · 02/11/2021 06:22

Thank you all for the replies.

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seekinglondonlife · 05/03/2022 09:28

I know this is an old thread but read something in the last few days through work and I wanted to ask Jewish women with lived experience. It seems when a woman starts bleeding in childbirth she is considered niddah therefore her husband can't physically touch her. How do women feel about this? I assume they are aware of it therefore resigned to it, but it must be very hard not to be able to hug etc in those very emotional days following childbirth?
@onlychildhamster
@Bergmum
@AnnaJKing

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AnnaJKing · 05/03/2022 09:31

Sorry @seekinglondonlife I don’t know anything about that. I am not orthodox and don’t follow those rules (and I married out!), plus I am childless.

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Bergmum · 05/03/2022 20:13

Definitely very hard right after childbirth or even harder after a mis

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seekinglondonlife · 06/03/2022 16:06

@Bergmum is there anything in place for emotional support in lieux of the husband? How long does the niddah after childbirth and miscarriage last for?

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