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AMA

I am a post-op transgender man - AMA

141 replies

iamthespark · 26/12/2018 23:08

Hello everyone!

Just as the title says, really. My name is Fabian. I am a post-operative transgender man - meaning I was assigned female at birth and affirmed my gender as male as I grew up, first on a societal level and then through surgery - who has some time to kill after the annual Christmas Mess. The life and times of transgender people seems to be a bit of a topic of conversation on MN (and in the world as a whole), so I thought it might be nice to shed some light on some questions, if I can.

Intentionally goady or deliberately insulting comments will be laughed at - there's honestly nothing I've not heard before, and my skin has grown very thick over the years - but for the most part, I truly will answer absolutely anything. I work on the assumption that all questions are genuine, however they might be worded, so I'll treat pretty much everything as such.

I hope everyone had a lovely holiday!

OP posts:
Hyppolyta · 27/12/2018 16:02

Fabian, you sort of fudged the answer to my question.

I asked if you think people have the right to sex segregated spaces.

Of course these wont suit transpeople, I understand that. But gendered spaces dont suit people who are not trans.

The question is, do people have the right to sex segregation, by bio sex?

If males wanted male only loos, without females of any kind, including transmen, do you think they have that right?

dementedma · 27/12/2018 16:08

fabian, a great thread - thank you.
In your thread title you say you are a transgender man, and in some of your replies you say you are a man. Which term do you think is the correct one and why? (Apologies if offence caused but I get called a terf if I call a transwoman a transwoman, and not a woman so am genuinely confused)

iamthespark · 27/12/2018 16:28

ShotsFired
Spark, what's your opinion on men who are claiming to have transitioned as late teens or adult males, competing in women's sports? What impact do you feel this will have on women trying to compete or even enter sports? e.g. Hannah Mouncey, Fallon Fox, Rachel McKinnon, Laurel Hubbard
(bearing in mind the overwhelming and blatantly obvious physiological differences and benefits they have grown up with, that are not negated by any hormones, even though many are not even taking any and have simply self-id'd their way to wins and records)
I think that's something that I take on a very case-by-case basis, personally. I leave the actual legislation to the professionals, but I think there are circumstances when a trans woman wants to compete in her chosen sport and should be allowed to, and I think there are circumstances when a person is taking advantage of something to claim a record. I do think there is an element of being able to tell which is which. However, it is a difficult situation where sports are involved - professional sportsmen often have their whole lives wrapped up in their chosen field, and if you suddenly come to terms with being transgender in the midst of that, I imagine it could be exceedingly hard to separate from a lifetime of dedication and practice. I wouldn't know - the only sport I do is couch-to-fridge relay - but it's an interesting thing to think about.
In terms of the question, though - I don't think a genuinely transgender woman should be blocked from competing amongst people of her own gender purely because she was noted as a male at birth, no. However, I do think we could do with some closer scrutiny in terms of gender identity within sports as a whole, and if it is a system that is being taken advantage of by people who perhaps are giving trans people an ill name.

NotAnotherJaffaCake
In response to not feeling like a woman, did you ever seriously question that maybe your or society's idea of what a woman should be/feel like was wrong, as opposed to seeing what is effectively self mutilation as a solution? How much did you explore the validity of feeling wrong before you transitioned?
Oh, I questioned it until I was blue in the face. I had therapy and counselling, not only by the GIC but by private psychiatrists and professionals, for years and years before I ever began a societal or medical transition. That therapy and counselling continued throughout the entire process, and I am still seen a couple of times a year today.
As mentioned, it's not a case of me thinking there's a particular way that woman should behave, or should feel like. I was brought up in such a way that I understood very young that men and women could act the same, dress the same, achieve the same things - there was no jealousy in terms of being told that I couldn't do something. I just knew I wasn't a woman.

ocelot41
I just wanted to pop on to thank the OP for such a candid, friendly and non-aggressive approach. Its educational, interesting and refreshing. As so many have said earlier, you seem really lovely.
Two questions from me: 1. Do you think it's quietly understood in the trans community that women have every reason to respond to self id by voicing their fear of male violence? I have often wondered if the goadier types who sometimes come on these boards are people who just 'shout the loudest' and aren't necessarily representative of the community as a whole. It doesn't seem that hard to 'get' to me - the stats on sexual violence are what they are, and so many women have personal experience of men who will claim anything to access vulnerable women and girls. 2. Given those concerns, what ways can I show kindness and respect which would be meaningful to transpeople - most of whom aren't trying to hurt anyone?
Yes. At least, it's understood by me and the people I socialise with. Trauma is an awful thing to live with, and I don't begrudge anyone who has fears or concerns over self-ID due to bitter experience. As you say, the stats on sexual violence are well-known.
However, at the same time, I've said before that self-ID would have been a godsend to me at a younger age, and I do support it's usage to an extent. It's also worth stating, for transparency's sake, that transgender women (and men, for that matter) are at a high risk of sexual violence themselves, and many, many trans women just want to get on with their lives quietly and anonymously, accepted as women. Self-ID would certainly help them achieve that, in a safe and secure way.
The thing that helped me most was acceptance and usage of my name and pronouns. Even if there are sensitive topics at hand and different opinions being lobbed about, using a trans person's chosen name and pronouns shows the person standing opposite you that you respect the decisions they've made about themselves, at least for that moment or that conversation. Your own internal opinions don't necessarily have to match up, but it is a very good way to show compassion to our voice.
Most of us aren't trying to hurt anyone, ever - the rate of violence in the trans community is no higher than it is in the general population. We're not your enemy. There is a small, select group who may use certain aspects of our community to cause harm, but there will always be people looking to cause harm to others - generally, those people will look for any method to do so, and unfortunately that occasionally includes gender identity.

SnuggyBuggy
Do you think your transition will get easier or more difficult with age?
A bit of both, I expect. Certain things will get easier, the further away I get from trauma - eventually, I will have lived the majority of my life as a man who looks like a man, and only a small chunk of it as female-presenting. That is a very soothing thought, to me. On the other hand, the downsides could be future complications due to surgery or hormones, or the difficulty of continue to self-administer those hormones - the future of the NHS plays a huge part in this, after all. But for the most part, I am extremely hopeful about the rest of my life, and very excited to live it.

ocelot41
Sorry, one more question: why won't more transpeople come forward to help negotiate a solution to fears about sexual violence/mixed sex spaces? And to counter the homophobia of the 'cotton ceiling' posse. We need you now.
Speaking personally, as someone who was campaigning for trans rights since the mid 1990s, as well as freedom from sexual and domestic violence, the lack of expressions of solidarity from the trans community feels like a massive betrayal. It really, really hurts.
Its like, I was there (with other LGB activists) for decades, fighting your corner, and now the time comes for a difficult negotiation which involves you respecting the need to safeguard women, and suddenly you're not only failing to stand shoulder to shoulder with me, I've miraculously become some kind of outcast - a neofascist "TERF". I cannot gloss over that with rainbow banners and glitter, I really can't.
It is a very sad situation. The general blueprint of the LGBT community seems to be crumbling from within, recently - as mentioned earlier, infighting runs rampant and it feels like we've lost that sense of solidarity that held us together.
I think a lot of the reluctance to use our voices comes from fear, honestly - the fear of being seen as something 'other', neither male or female. It is very painful, to not be considered as the person you know you are, and a lot of us are reluctant to take that pain. It is a difficult negotiation, and the reason a lot of us - including myself - do struggle with being excluded from same-sex spaces is because all we really want is to be considered as one of you. As said before, I truly don't know the answer. But I do hope a solution that helps everyone can eventually be reached - nobody deserves to live in fear.

madvixen
Iamthespark - firstly, thank you for your openness and honesty in answering these question. The Self ID debate has been so polarised that honest communications have been lost, your voice is appreciated.
Do you feel that the widening of the Stonewall umbrella and their viewpoint of "acceptance without exception" (even if that acceptance includes people like JW and KW) has harmed the trans community and led to the polarisation of debate?
I'm afraid I can't for the life of me think what JW and KW could be! However, to try and manage the question anyway. I think what has happened lies in the fact that we've broaded the umbrella, yes, but haven't broadened the debate itself. So you're quite right - it's very much a two-extremes thing at the moment, where you're either 'with us or against us!'. This sort of polarisation does nothing except stir up vitriol and bad feeling, and does very little towards building a better future. I will accept anyone, if they come to me with the urge to live happily and honestly as themselves - even if their experience does not match my own. The older generation of trans people - and I'm hardly one of the elders, but I'm older, at least - perhaps understand a little better how to create and manage an effective dialogue, one which contains a myriad of POVs rather than two very extreme ones. Unfortunately, our voices are not as loud today as they used to be, and I think the heart of the whole thing - seeking not just acceptance, but happiness - has been lost in the wave of 'us-vs-them'.

OP posts:
AssassinatedBeauty · 27/12/2018 16:33

Regarding sport, whether someone is a "genuine" transgender person or not makes no difference at all to their physical state. A male bodied person will always have advantages over women in sport. Advantages that full transition cannot ever change. I cannot see how it can be fair to women to lose out on funding, on progression etc etc.

iamthespark · 27/12/2018 16:42

Hyppolyta
Fabian, you sort of fudged the answer to my question.
I asked if you think people have the right to sex segregated spaces.
Of course these wont suit transpeople, I understand that. But gendered spaces dont suit people who are not trans.
The question is, do people have the right to sex segregation, by bio sex?
If males wanted male only loos, without females of any kind, including transmen, do you think they have that right?^
You're right, I apologise - talked myself in a circle and forgot my point, I think!
My honest answer, speaking from only my own experience - and please remember that I'm only my own voice - is that I believe I have the right to use a male-sex bathroom. I believe trans women have the right to use a female-sex bathroom. I believe that sex-segregated spaces should include transgender people who wish to use them.
I do understand that this is the hot topic to end them all, but I wanted to provide a truthful answer. I apologise if this stirs up ill-feeling. I also want to reiterate that I do understand and sympathise with people who are not trans, who do not agree with this point of view, and nor am I suggesting that my opinion is the be-all and end-all. As said before, I believe there is a solution to this dilemma somewhere - I'm just not sure what it might be.

dementedma
fabian, a great thread - thank you.
In your thread title you say you are a transgender man, and in some of your replies you say you are a man. Which term do you think is the correct one and why? (Apologies if offence caused but I get called a terf if I call a transwoman a transwoman, and not a woman so am genuinely confused)
I personally just use the term 'man' to refer to myself in my daily life. The reason I differentiate here is to make things a little clearer for people less familiar with the transgender experience. Those who are proud of being transgender may well preface the word with 'trans', but I and many others prefer not to draw attention to our status if we can avoid it!
It's also worth saying that I do use the term 'cisgendered' to refer to those who are not trans in my daily life. I have avoided it up until now because it seems to be a highly contested word in this context, from what I've read, and I had no wish to alienate people before I'd started! Just thought I'd say, to make things clearer.

OP posts:
ocelot41 · 27/12/2018 16:49

You are utterly lovely Iamthespark. Thank you for your considered and warm responses to my questions, especially because you yourself have been badly hurt in the past. I respect your answers and wholeheartedly agree with your concern about 'us versus them'. There appears for little space in the debate left for those of us with sympathies on both "sides", who want to negotiate a mutually workable solution for all. I wish transpeople like you, who are willing to reason and talk things through, were more present in the debate over self id, but thank you for what you have done today. It took courage and I wish you well. I feel I understand a bit more

Hyppolyta · 27/12/2018 16:51

Thanks for answering Fabian I used to agree there was a solution, now I honestly dont think it will ever happen.

Hyppolyta · 27/12/2018 17:14

I have to say I find your language quite confused.

With sports you talk about transwomen being allowed to compete with people of their own gender.

Sports are not segregated by gender.
Nor do all women have a gender.

What we are actually discussing is transwomen being allowed to compete with people of the opposite sex.

Which begs the question why bother segregating?

ocelot41 · 27/12/2018 17:16

Hyppolyta, are you me? The only thing I can see shifting this now is a mass uprising from the moderate sections of the trans community to say that they understand feminist (and especially lesbian) concerns and want to work together to find ways to help everyone stay safe. No more rape apologists. No more "it never happens". No more doxxing or threatening women who disagree. That is not liberation. But everyone who is trans and reasonable (including my beloved ex) is just keeping their heads down. I do see why - there's some seriously hateful shit out there, from all sides, and most decent transfolk have had more than enough pain in their lives. But until that happens, the misogynistic extremists have the stage and women born as women are going to conclude that the rainbow flag no longer means much. Sorry for the thread hijack OP. I really respect you, and feel like, for once, someone might be listening.

Hyppolyta · 27/12/2018 17:45

I cant see any mass uprising, simply because what someone like I would argue for (segregation by bio sex) is the exact opposite if what someone like Fabian would want.

Neither of us are intending to be unreasonable, we just have opposite needs.

Talking is the answer though, or at least the only way an answer will be found.

I also think it takes a lot of courage for a someone to post on mumsnet saying theyre trans in the current climate so thanks Fabian!

ocelot41 · 27/12/2018 17:53

I would be open to considering mixed facilities and a more humane approach to diagnosis of GD (although not full self ID) if I felt women's safety and equality concerns were being dealt with in a considered, informed and respectful way. As it is, I just feel used - and deeply sceptical. The phrase "sold down the river" springs to mind. But yes, Fabian, this exchange took decency and courage to do. I see and admire that

iamthespark · 27/12/2018 18:02

hyppolyta ocelot41 So sorry for delayed reply, an emergency cat-tipped-the-waterbowl situation suddenly occurred. Thank you both for your courtesy and kindness. We could all do with a great deal more of it these days. Hopefully the future will bring a more level-headed and respectful playing field on which to hash out these questions, and maybe eventually a solution that works for everyone's safety might come out of it. On my part, I intend to try and make my own voice a little louder when it comes to these things in particular - fear can only be an excuse for so long. Hopefully I can provide a little more support in future than I have done until now!

OP posts:
Truckingonandon · 27/12/2018 18:36

Given that that is your view on sport, do you also think that a transwoman should be allowed to go into a women's refuge?

ocelot41 · 27/12/2018 18:53

Thank you Iamthespark. Many gay and bi women like me feel massively betrayed. We fought for transpeople to be admitted to LGB groups, organised groups to walk trans folk home from clubs, campaigned for transpeople to have paid time off work for medical appointments or surgery, for discrimination against transpeople to be a disciplinary offence, for the names and pronouns on work emails or websites to be altered before people returned from transition. All that love, care and solidarity.

In short, we put ourselves out on a limb for you guys. So to say that our safety or equality concerns are too painful for you to discuss is beyond disappointing. I would love to see that change.

HavelockVetinari · 27/12/2018 19:00

Thank you OP for this very enlightening thread. It's been a real education, and I think you're very eloquent (and brave!) to post here.

ShotsFired · 27/12/2018 19:13

The issue is interesting if only because it is a complete fudge of linguistics to suit the story.

Single sex spaces are currently structured, understood and protected in law on a specific biological basis. That much is fact.

However the debate (such as it is) seems to stem from the proposition that the established sex-segregated setup is not "owned", so it's all up for grabs and equal shares is an option, like how the Wild West was settled. And this seems to be being achieved by conflating the biological fact of sex with the psychological notion of gender.

That is incorrect and unacceptable. Biological women already owned 100% of the single sex definition/structure/set up. It can't just be plucked from us like candy from a baby and redistributed without our permission. And "no" trumps "yes" in matters of consent - that applies to women who say they don't mind males in female spaces as well.

(The fact we have tolerated transsexuals is neither here nor there really. I don't think we were asked about that either, but the numbers were low and also it was in a mutual understanding that they had meaningfully transitioned. That definitely was not women saying "come on in everyone!")

ocelot41 · 27/12/2018 19:29

Has anything surprised you about the responses you have had here OP?

MummySharkDoDo · 27/12/2018 20:04

I’ve found this very interesting, you come across as someone I can understand.

I wonder in a way though if your f to m journey as given you a greater understanding of how women feel and awareness of others. I’ve never had any negative thoughts about trans people, until being exposed recently to repeated male violence stereotypes. Some m to f remind me of the worst most violent men I’ve met, going on twitter and threatening to hit people, abusive comments about appearance, physical threats etc. It’s hard to say how, but it’s a concentration of the fear you get in the company of violent men all their terf bashing stuff. I can’t equate that with female, and it makes me want to protect female space. Even if it’s a tiny minority, they are loud enough to be threatening. I went to a night out a while ago, three women near 7ft in huge heels were very aggressive when I went to step in their lift.

On the other hand I recognise the vulnerability of trans men (your experience of being beaten up seems to confirm this, it’s awful that happened). I can see many biological women posing a threat or scaring any men in male only space if they tried! Maybe thinking about it it’s just a younger crowd? The few trans women I know transitioned late in life and I knew as gentle family men before?

What are your thoughts on the intimidating aspect of trans women, not just that they are riled up, but they are actually a threat to women in some cases?

NotAnotherJaffaCake · 27/12/2018 20:18

Thanks for the answer. I must admit I'm a little distrustful of your linguistic style - overly wordy and makes me feel either that we are being led by the nose or that obfuscation is going on.

You say you were so certain you weren't a woman. How did you then jump to the conclusion that being a man was the answer? Why not being a cat, or dog? Somewhat facetious here, but hopefully you see the point. You had no idea before transition what manhood is, so how do you know it's what you are? And do you ever think about cultural appropriation?

ShotsFired · 27/12/2018 20:39

I must admit I'm a little distrustful of your linguistic style - overly wordy and makes me feel either that we are being led by the nose or that obfuscation is going on.

I engaged in good faith, but if you skim the thread and read only OPs responses, it's the same as every other trans person who's come along to re-educate us - namely the "I'm lovely, and I just know I'm male/female even though I can't explain what a male/female is; I don't have any answers to the huge questions you're trying to resolve, but I think trans people should be allowed in all opposite sex-segregated spaces; I think people should respect whatever someone says they are..." etc

It's just more politely phrased because female socialisation. They still think some nebulous feeling for one should take precedence over tried and tested safeguards for all. And also completely swerve the elephant in the room of male violence bring the root cause, even though they are happy to throw all women under the bus for their happiness.

Hazardswan · 27/12/2018 20:55

Lovely thread OP!

You indicated that trans as an umbrella term has widened but the debate hasn't widened with it. If we're stuck with the umbrella term (can you tell im not a fan Grin ) how would you like the debate to widen? What do you feel needs to be included in the debate?

donquixotedelamancha · 27/12/2018 21:04

It's just more politely phrased because female socialisation.

I agree with the general point but I think it's more likely to be politely phrased becasue the OP has thought carefully about how to make a persuasive argument and considers each response before posting. Personally I like that- if I'm going to hold a set of beliefs I want to hear the best arguments I'm wrong to see whether I change my mind.

The ability to talk and argue about this topic is very important. If this debate was able to be had in this way 3 years ago, in the public domain, then we would be in a very different place. It is the people urinating on academic's doors, hitting middle aged feminists, vandalising locations and sending threats to venues (in the OP's name) who are the enemy of all of us.

I do think the differences between the OPs position and the hard TRA position (biological sex exists and thus there can be debate about sex based rights and protections) are important.

donquixotedelamancha · 27/12/2018 21:16

I'm afraid I can't for the life of me think what JW and KW could be!

I assume KW is the transvestite rapist Karen White, who sexually assaulted a number of women after self-IDing into a women's prison.

I too would be interested to hear where and how you feel the line for 'genuine' transgender people should be drawn.

We're not your enemy.

I think it's worth noting that I have encountered no-one in the feminist community on MN, which is campaigning hard against self-ID and the Stonewall vision, who thinks transgender people as a group are the enemy. There are doubtless a few who are motivated by bigotry but they are smart enough to keep quiet about it, because when genuine transphobia rears its ugly head it is shouted down vociferously.

Hyppolyta · 27/12/2018 22:29

I dont think there is any possibility for debate here though.

OP, like many others, doesnt want gendered spaces, but to use spaces of the opposite sex for validation.

Thats one point of view, my personal view is completely opposite. I dont think my son should have to use urinals in front of females.

There isnt really a middle ground, is there?

Truckingonandon · 27/12/2018 23:03

Shots fired - very well said. As this thread went on, it became increasingly clear that the OP was rolling out exactly the same old stuff, albeit in a very wordy, engaging, eloquent way. Bullshit baffles brains n all that.