I am the mother of a trans child ...AMA

[DoryNow]

But no bun fights please, I am not a trans activist.

SlowlyShrinking here is a brief summary of the medical views on sex:

When we only had evidence of external genital characteristics and could only make inferences about fertility it was assumed that there were two, distinct sexes. If a baby presented with ambiguous external genitalia a decision on sex was made on the spot depending on the length of the external organ, shorter than a medically sanctioned ideal and it was a clitoris and the baby was a girl, longer and it was ampenis and the baby was a boy.

Medical imagining techniques gave us more information on internal sexual characteristics. Now there seemed to be a subgroup if women for samples, who were missing internal sexual organs necessary for reproduction. They were put under the infertility category until cases presented that seemed to challenge the original sexual classification.

It took quite a while for medicine to recognize intersex people and the various conditions under this umbrella term are still very poorly understood, but how we now understand intersex people suggests that there are more options than male/female both at the genetic level and in how these genes are expressed.

Early responses to intersex people were to make a best informed guess at sex at birth, assign that sex and proceed with medical interventions including operations and hormone treatment to help the body develop in the direction of the assigned sex. However, later evidence suggested that the original sex assignment was often a huge mistake since adult patients often found the original sex assignment to be wrong.

Currently the predominant thinking is that it is best to hold off from any interventions until the patient herself can have a say in whether she identifies as female, male, both or neither and proceed from there.

Trans people are not intersex people but th medical understanding of intersex has strongly influenced the approach to trans. Intersex people and their complexity have shaken the medical certainty that there are two clearly cut sexes. Given that this is an area where medicine has messed up enormously in the past, e.g. lobotomizing promiscuous women, institutionnalizing gay people, mutilating intersex people, etc the cautious approach is to listen to the patient.

No one really understands intersex and trans in medicine so to avoid abuses of patients the most ethical approache is to listen to patients about their identity and use medical resources to help them on their journeys.

Intersex and Trans are completely different issues.

The vast majority of people are clearly and correctly observed to have a sex category of female or male at birth...including those who will later say they are trans.

Tiny numbers of babies are born intersex and even then science can correctly sex these children in 90% of cases without DNA tests etc.

It is disingenuous to say that there is anything difficult or ambiguous in observing what sex category an average baby is born too.

Intersex groups have repeatedly asked not to be be dragged into the trans arguments and we should respect their wishes. It is also worth noting that the intersex community, discourage any treatment or operations on intersex children. They sensibly think that only once the intersex child has grown to be an mature adult. Then they can make their own decisions if they want surgery. No changes in childhood is their goal...unlike the trans attitude of 'the younger the better' to be transitioned.

It would be a very unlikely combination to have a biological intersex person who wasn't clearly in a sex category as a baby AND trans.

The vast majority of trans people have a sex, which clearly falls into male or female. The fact they don't like the sex they are, doesn't change the fact that they have a sex.

with DNA tests

OP,
I would interested in knowing if your son use the male toilets and male changing rooms......now or in the future ?

Do you have a preference of where he should go ?

In theory if your child had to be held in hospital or jail for any reason in the future, would you be happy for him to be housed with the men ?

If not, why not ?

I am a woman because of my body. But I wear men's clothes. I don't own any make up, high heels or dresses. All my hobbies are masculine. I have always hated my body and breasts, really struggled through puberty and periods. But I am happily married with kids now.

Glad I didn't grow up today, else I would be a boy too ! But I have a daughter who is a mini me and I don't want her to feel she has to be a man, if she hates everything about femininity...like me.

I am trying to figure out what is the difference between being a gender non conforming woman and a trans man ?

I am trying to decide how best to guide my child who is already being told daily at school that she must be a boy, because she likes dinosaurs and cars (just like me at her age, I rejected all girls toys and dresses).

But do you have any actual evidence that this can happen? Does anyone?

What do you mean by evidence?

With an apology to the OP for the derail, I will explain whilst having to experience of trans I very much emphasise with her

Last year one doctor was genuinely considering admitting DS to hospital for munchusens by proxy. the Doctor couldn't fit Ds's symptoms into something he knew and understood, it simply couldn't be happening the way i was being reporting it and so the obvious conclusion was i was harming my child. (Thankfully his colleague felt differently)

One year later, the right test results and a few very clever Doctors, DS is diagnosed.
Exactly as i had reported the symptoms but a slightly different medical pathway than is currently documented. They don't really have all the information behind my DS's SN, chances are DS will end up in the medical books somewhere. (Along with an awful lot of other children with disperate unexplained symptoms who are part of some pretty major breakthrough studies). It's is amazing how little we actually know about how the body and how and why it develops beyond simple baseline mechanics.

Up to the point of diagnosis the only "actual evidence" was observation. And that was subject to interpretation. Does that mean it wasn't happening? No of course not. It just meant we didnt understand it.

I wonder if the Doctor who now finds himself on the wrong side of DS' personal history will ever comprehend the idea that because we only have observational evidence of something it doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

Now treatment is not an area I can comment on, i have no baseline and no experience. Other than your last sentence reminds me of a Doctor who 5 years ago told me I by asking for a specific unpleasant intrusive test i was ridiculous And clearly wanted to harm my child, the doctor who suggested it was an irresponsible unethical nutjob. Guess which test proved my son's condition...

So no despite the lack of evidence beyond people's experience, it's not hard for me to believe that systems that govern development stuff up in ways we don't yet understand

Of course i may prove wrong in the long run. But so might much of the gender/sex stuff. In the end we are only making sense of what we experience based on current knowledge.

What we really need to be aware of is how limited that currently knowledge is.

Thank you all who have commented - as I have said before I am trying not to go down the wormhole of wider discussion about trans (interesting and valid though it is ) but keep it to the subject of trans kids and how their treatment (if any ) progresses.

As I see it AMA means ask me anything about my particular situation, & personal experience so I will stick to that for now as I know there is a lot of curiosity about it & we have had some interesting questions that I hope I have answered.

I have also said I may be being vague or seemingly ignoring some questions as I either don't know the answer, or don't want to identify myself overmuch. I'm sorry if that seems ignorant or annoying !

TheGoldenFleece " But I can understand why the OP might not want to answer questions about whether the path to medical or surgical transitioning is right for children"

Obviously as my child took that route ( but not till age 18) then yes I do believe it was right for him. There seems to be this misconception in the media that children are being stuffed with hormones like sweeties, and sterilised at puberty & this really irritates me.

Each child is assessed individually and the minimum amount of medical intervention offered to get to where they are comfortable, and it is a long slow process which although tortuous on the one hand, i personally feel is useful on the other.

It allows the child to socially transition & really explore if they truly are trans before any medical intervention. If they decide they are not Happy Days! If -with parental support hopefully- they wish to proceed further then the options are fully talked over, pros & cons of what is offered are discussed before proceeding.
Hope that answers your question.

I must add in with very young children, allowing them to socially transition with parental & school support and with lots of counselling if it can be obtained can really help reduce the mental health issues that arise where a young trans child is rejected by their family and their dysphoria dismissed. The fact they are listened to and supported hugely boosts their feeling of self worth & helps them feel valued and listened to so they can decide which path to take.

Sorry @DoryNow back to you!

Sotired sorry x-posted with yours so just seen it.

Yes my son is living full time as male so uses all the faciltities as a male, he would be (rightly) thrown out of a ladies loo as a hairy 6ft lump !! Sometimes he uses gender neutral/unisex loos if available.

He is an adult now so my input is only offered when asked for!

Funnily enough we were having the discussion about prison the other day. We both think the authorities are damned if they do, damned if they don't. There are so many overcrowding issues due to chronic underfunding of the prison service it must be a nightmare, but having trans units must be the way forward. As his Mum, I would hate for him to be put in a male prison, & he said he would feel unsafe if outed but would totally understand why he and fellow inmates would feel uncomfortable being put in a womens prison. I've told him to bloody well behave and not break the law to save me the angst

Hospital I would not be so bothered about as the facilties are more private usually smaller bays & there is more option of a side ward in some hospitals.

Why do you think you would be a boy today ? If you didn't feel you were trans no one would push you down that route, just bc you were/are a tomboy. It really isn't that easy.
Being non feminine does not & should not = masculine.

She is who she is & she should be allowed to express however she likes, good for you for encouraging that.

If you are having trouble with school maybe you could ask the teacher to do a session about celebrating peoples differences and not adhering to gender stereotypes? (has always done my head in, pink for girls blue for boys etc gaaahhhh!!)

Yokatsu no problem, thanks

Sounds like you have had a nightmare, I do hope things are easing for you now.

Do you feel that as a teenage girl your child really knew enough about being an adult man to know they wanted to be one?

Also does your child sound like a man? Do they have to put on a man voice?

Snuggy a teen boy doesn't know about being an adult man, like any young male he has learned to grow into his adult maleness. He knew enough to realise he had always been inherently male just with the wrong bits on the outside crazy as that must seem to those of us who don't get it.

My son is now 21 and his voice broke quite early on in his transitioning and taking testosterone so no need to put on anything.

sorry about the shit you're getting.

I'm not sure if you'll want to answer this as it's a bit more general, no worries if not. Female to male, using male facilities, is obviously unlikely to cause any other users concern for their health. Male to female is more likely to. Do you think you would have supported your child in a different way, particularly in regard to which facilities they use, if they had been male to female?

Not suggesting for a moment that they would do anything btw, just that other users would not know that and be concerned.

Except you are going down the wider wormhole OP with statements like this: "I must add in with very young children, allowing them to socially transition with parental & school support and with lots of counselling if it can be obtained can really help reduce the mental health issues that arise where a young trans child is rejected by their family and their dysphoria dismissed. The fact they are listened to and supported hugely boosts their feeling of self worth & helps them feel valued and listened to so they can decide which path to take."

Which are not evidence based facts at all, they are your opinion and have nothing to do with your child who didn't decide they were trans until their teens.

Hi Mip

Getting used to it sadly!

Interesting you should ask that as I have thought a lot about this. I do think that F>M is easier in terms of changing appearance, he was always a tomboy & so just taking it a step further was relatively easy in a practical sense. ( although I initially wobbled at buying male clothes part of the learning/ adapting )

All the flack M>F’s get over “bathroom” issues is so unfair. Many of us will probably be sharing the next cubicle to one without ever knowing it. Like the rest of us they just want to get in, have a pee, wash their hands, & get out. If it’s quiet the may adjust their hair or ‭
lippy.
I would probably worry far more about a trans daughter & I worry enough as it is about his safety but I just have to trust in his common sense & his lovely mates who look out for him.

For him he slips into the male cubicles or disabled loos if no gender neutral ones - some disabilities are hidden is what he learned to say if challenged, notnthat henever has been!

I didn't actually know that your voice could break with testosterone treatment, always good to learn something new.

I guess by my question I would wonder if someone who transitioned young could have regrets when they are old enough to appreciate what being a male/female adult is really like. It seems to me that it's all about idealised stereotypes and the reality could be a disappointment.

Also how does your child feel about managing their female heath? I mean things like cervical screening.

booboostwo the op’s child (I assume) is not intersex and clearly is of the female sex. Not sure why you’re bringing intersex into it??
You do know that ‘sex’ refers to which reproductive category someone falls into, ie whether they belong to the sex that produces eggs or the sex that produces sperm? Most people with DSD fall into one or the other category afaik. Trying to say that intersex or trans people are some kind of 3rd sex is completely nonsensical tbh.
Also, many late transitioning transwomen have fathered children, so clearly no ambiguity at all there. They produce sperm so are of the Male sex 🤷‍♀️

Sorry for going off the topic of the thread

I went to a talk by a very interesting woman called Gill Smith. She was a trans man for a while before de-transitioning. As your son's voice has now broken and he has a beard, would he be able to go back to being a woman if he decided down the line he had made the wrong choice?

There's also someone on Twitter who had to come off the medication for medical reasons and having been trans for 15 years, realised they had made a mistake after the drugs left their system.

Do you worry about this possibility?

orchid No these are evidence based observations but I feel no need to justify myself here. Was here a question you wanted to raise or are you just another GF?

Here's a useful link. A US based periodical but teh thinking is the same as in the UK

www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/when-your-adult-child-breaks-your-heart/201703/strategies-supporting-transgender-child

Snuggy yes we had to go through grumpy teen phase twice for my sins

There seems to be this thought (not just you BTW!!) that all trans kids are just hankering after a stereotype. I can't speak for all obviously but certainly my son & the other trans teens I know just want to be themselves and that is a wide range of different personalities and presentations most of whom don't fit neatly into any stereotypes.

He is aware of having to have cervival screening, obviously it would be very upsetting to have so we are taking that one carefully.

Hi OP

You mentioned that your son transitioned after seeing videos on YouTube.

Do you worry that social media influenced his decision?

I am not being a goady fucker. You have repeatedly asked people to stick to the topic at hand - your experience of being the mother of a female bodied son.

I am simply asking you to abide by the terms of reference that you set. I don't have any questions for you that haven't been asked already.

Slowlyshrinking I think it was fairly obvious why I mentioned intersex people but let me repeat myself and hope for the best. The first reason is that the history of medical ethics in the area of sex and gender has been influenced by findings on intersex people. The medical recognition that intersex people exist led to wider understandings of what it means to be male and female.

The second reason is that the existence of intersex people proves that not everyone is clearly male or clearly female based on biology. So one can no longer get away with saying that trans people cannot be the other sex as they are clearly biologically their sex. There is more to sex assignment than we understand at present. It doesn’t matter how few intersex people there might be, it is an empirical claim. If you say everyone is either male or female and there is an example of even one person who does not fit your definition, you are wrong. This is a simple point of logic.

Give over with the myth that all intersex people distance themselves from trans people. No one speaks on behalf of all intersex people and organisations representing intersex people are supportive of full rights for trans people.

Very insightful OP, thank you.
I hope you don't let the GF that have joined your thread put you off coming back.
I am surprised haven't come beating down the door yet with their views.

My question: if you could have your daughter back as she was then or your son as he is now (and the associated distress/loss you went through at the time), which would you choose?

booboobstwo how do you explain trans people who have biological children? They are clearly not intersex and their bio sex is not ambiguous in any way. Or all the transmen who still menstruate? Nothing ambiguous there. What’s your explanation?

"he was always a boy underneath I just didn't know it then, I do now"

OP - What do you mean by this?

Where exactly was your daughter a boy "underneath"?

Are you talking about psychological traits commonly associated with boys and seldom associated with girls?