I'm a radical unschooler AMA

[OutOfControlSpirals]

I'm a radical unschooling mum, which basically means I've taken the principals of unschooling, where a child is free to learn what they want, when they want, and applied it to every aspect of our lives. So my children have the same freedoms that I do when it comes to eating/sleeping/learning etc.

"My youngest grandchildren may not realise they are being taught, but when they help compile a shopping list, go to the shop and pick out items, help pay, come home, weigh and measure ingredients, have Mummy tell them they have to add a raising agent and why, time their cakes being cooked, they are learning. When their mother gives them kitchen scales and loads of pots and pans and utensils and they play in their mud kitchen, they are learning. I think at their ages this holistic way of learning maths, to tell the time, science, is wonderful."*

As a grandma I feel I can tell you that you’re holistic way is and has been the normal way since pa was a boy.

One of my grandsons taught himself to read at age six because "You see, Nana, I realised that G (big sister) was getting a lot of good information from books, so I thought I'd better learn to read so I could get good information too". His parents were following the Scandinavian idea of waiting until the child is 7 before starting to teach them to read

So your grandson was ready to read and more than likely showing signs of it but no one had thought to start teaching him to read because they were waiting for him to be 7 because that’s how it’s done in Scandinavia?*

I wouldn’t be boasting about it.

you’re

your

OP, I'm sure what you are doing with your children is all great, but I really can't see what is different between what you do, and what any other parent does, except most children go to school and get the other aspect of their education as well.

“Apparently the Scandinavian school system is run the way you are 'unschooling' your children - and it works! So good for you and I hope the children all turn out well.”

The “Scandinavian” system isn’t like unschooling at all. Even so, Scandinavia as a region doesn’t have successful
Schooling. Finland does. Norway, for example, performs much like the U.K. internationally.

as a sixth form tutor with responsibilities for enrollment, I have a lot of experience in attempting to reintergrate home educated children into mainstream life, at the age of 16, 17 or 18, when they decide they need GCSEs, A levels or BTECS to get on.

Sadly, most fail at this stage, because they just don't have the training and discipline they need.

I would say we are pretty good at assessing who to accept now, and probably half of the home educated students we accept go on to go on to get the university place they want.

But we turn away most home educated students, because we know we can't help them.

So fo course, many do go on to become very successful, but the majority end up unemployed on benefits, and in my 30 years of teaching, very few home educated children have thought home education was the best thing for their own children.

Its largely the lack of challenge in their home curriculum that lets them down, they never develop any resilience or discipline or good habits.

Typically we get student turn up to enrol at 6th form with 10+ high grade GCSEs, and expeting to be able to take A levels, but they have never undertaken a heavy work load, and frequently their parents just have no understanding that taking 10 GCSEs over 4 or even 5 years is worthless, they just see GCSEs as qualifications you can accumulate at a slow rate, this is not the case.

To get into A levels, we need to see 5 GCSEs taken in 2 years, including English and maths, and the subjects you want to do at A level, so if you are starting 4 A levels, that is actually maybe a minimum of 6 GCSEs

We do sometimes bend the rules if someone convinces us that they are worth the risk... but the nonsense of someone rocking up at 16 to do maths, who hasn't done any since getting the A* at 12... this is pretty typical of the problems we encounter. And the parents don't anticipate any problems being accepted, it can come as a very nasty shock to them. I vividly remember one mother sobbing at her daughter being turned down by the English department because her English GCSEs were so old, and had been taken in isolation, not with any other GCSEs.....

Like I said, we turn down most home educated students, and if we think they have a chance, we will accept them, but they often struggle hugely socially, academically and practically. It is worth it to give them an opportunity to get on, but it is terrible for the school statistics, and in a situation where a school really cares about that, fewer home educated students would be accepted.

we are more likely to offer home educated 16 year olds a place to do a level 1 or level 2 qualification than a level 3 one, so they can start off at GCSE level or below, but obviously then may well run out of free education years before they get to A levels.

I genuinely don't understand who so many posters are being so aggressive to the OP or why they are so suspicious of her intentions. Must be a hell of a lot of rocks out there with mumsnetters living under them.

I think it sounds like a lovely upbringing for the children. I wish I had the courage to do the same for my children.

Pickle, I think a lot of it is down to the fact that it can seem at times as if the OP thinks she's invented the wheel in terms in parenting and educating her children. She just doesn't seem to understand that getting a child to help with a shopping list is what people do anyway. There's even a grandma on the thread who thinks its a holistic way of learning when what it really is is nothing but bog standard playing and doing things with the children.

It is very often the same when this discussion comes up, in RL too. I home educate one of my children and am very relaxed about it due to his additional needs but more structured than the OP and even that raises hackles and gets people barking questions and trying to find ways to discredit to your choice. Most back off when I explain ds has SEN, it's fine for that sort of child but this particular parenting choice really does seem to make some people feel angry. I knew this thread would go like this as soon as I saw the title. It really feels like attacking difference to me, which isn't usually acceptable on MN or to most people in RL generally but with Home Ed the gloves seem to come straight off. I know what I think about why this is but I can't be bothered to enter the fray on this thread. I've been involved in these discussions too many times before.

as if the OP thinks she's invented the wheel in terms in parenting and educating her children. She just doesn't seem to understand that getting a child to help with a shopping list is what people do anyway.

I don't think she comes across like that at all. People are asking for explanations, she's giving them and people are just waiting to ridicule and rip them apart. Explaining Home Ed if you do it in an unstructured way is very difficult. For me the most accurate way is to say "it just happens" because it does. But that is not a good enough answer for most people they want more, understandably but when you give more it's not enough. I've been home educating for 8 years and seen some huge success stories plus I look at the difference in my own son and I know what's working but it's very difficult to explain because it's not hard facts, hard routine and the philosophy doesn't fit most people's idea of what "education" should be so it gets pulled to pieces with huge enthusiasm by many, as evidenced on this thread.

That's a really interesting post @clairetree
You've obviously seen quite a few home ed families, and it's quite a strong assertion you make that many end up unemployed and on benefits? Are all 6th form colleges as strict with their admissions criteria? Would a home educated student be able to undertake an apprenticeship if they were not able to get accepted to do A-levels or BTEC?

what it really is is nothing but bog standard playing and doing things with the children.

I agree with this, everybody else's children are getting everything the OP is offering her children, AND the benefit of a formal education as well.

So as far as I can see, the OPs children are missing out massively, and gaining nothing, and sadly my experience of attempting to help home educated children at a later stage in their lives is that the vast majority suffer badly from this loss. Some cope and go on to do well, in spite f it, but many end up nowhere with nothing

You've obviously seen quite a few home ed families, and it's quite a strong assertion you make that many end up unemployed and on benefits? Are all 6th form colleges as strict with their admissions criteria? Would a home educated student be able to undertake an apprenticeship if they were not able to get accepted to do A-levels or BTEC?

possibly, but around here decent apprenticeships are far more competitive to get into than any academic course.

They are seen as an alternative to A levels, or at the next level up, an alternative to a degree, which they are, to some extent, but what most people don't realise is that they are incredibly sort after, and very very competitive - well the decent ones are- and it is frequently the absolute cream of the crop that win them, in other words, people who could easily have got into a good university and achieved a very highly respected degree.

excuse my spelling!

His parents were following the Scandinavian idea of waiting until the child is 7 before starting to teach them to read

Most kids here in Sweden 🇸🇪 can read well before that. Preschool is mainly play based but they do plenty of fun letter and number stuff as well and go into a pre-real-school class at six.

The idea of them never touching a book or letters/number until seven just isn’t true.

What they do have is less PRESSURE. No tests, no hours in front of a chalkboard etc. Swedish secondary isn’t as good as UK though and I worry for when D.C. get to that point...

That's really interesting Clairetree1. It makes sense really, doing one gcse that you find interesting is a lot less demanding that doing 11 in two years.

Things are even more competitive now than when I was at school, standards are higher and teenagers seem much more driven than the 90s/00s. With widening inequality, and many jobs needing a degree that didn’t before, i imagine the impact on your life of not being able to a levels despite being intelligent and capable are significant. But I know from experience hat being intelligent and capable means nothing - learning self discipline, resilience (how to cope with being shouted at for playing minecraft instead of doing your homework!) and how to apply yourself are far more important for academic success

but they often struggle hugely socially, academically and practically.

I don’t doubt that at all but you can’t say the home ed is definitely responsible. As I understand it parents are more likely to turn to home ed if they have a child who is having difficulties to start with, whatever they may be, within the mainstream system.

I'm guessing the Op is too busy with things more important to her rather than answering questions on her own AMA.
Assume (in fact, hope) it's bad manners rather than anything challenging to her family.

Explaining Home Ed if you do it in an unstructured way is very difficult

As someone who did Home Ed a child ( he's almost 30 now) with additional needs I found it very difficult to explain full stop.

The concept of walking into a job you love without qualifications is ludicrous. The job market is difficult to get into without a degree as it is. And yes 6th forms are very selective at who they let in. Also the weird notion some have here that jobs in the creative field are easy and you can just get one through passion is crazy. They are amongst one of the hardest to get.

See I just do not recognise what you describe Claire.

I can see that if you want to go the very specific route of 10 GCSE's, four A'Levels, Uni etc then yes there will be obstacles. Every Home Ed parent I know realises this, they really do but that's just ONE way - main stream education - and we have already established that doesn't work for everyone. All you're really doing is reiterating that and describing the difficulties that can emerge later on in the mainstream process.

All the Home Ed families I know never had this expectation and so take alternative routes for their further education as well e.g Open University, Level 1 & 2 courses as you mention - why is this a problem by the way? They'll get there in the end - and this is without even mentioning the teens I know who are going to Cambridge and other high profile unis, another who is the lead in a highly successful west end musical, others who are steadily working towards their "clutch of GCSEs" in line with main stream requirements, others who got straight onto graphic design, jewellery making, animal husbandry, beauty/hairdressing courses went into the forces ...I could go on.

I'm also interested in where you live that you're coming across such swathes of Home Ed children with such terrible outcomes, because I live in London and know of a huge Home Ed community yet at my local college, well known and massive, they'd only ever seen two Home Ed teens wanting to access FE there and had to do a ton of research before they could offer a place and when they knew what they were doing those teens were accepted with enthusiasm and are thriving. I accept that other FE colleges will have more but the numbers and such negatives outcomes you describe seems unusual to me especially given that most Home Ed parents don't follow the radical path and are in fact not churning out children that totally lack discipline or ability to adhere to routine.

I'm guessing the Op is too busy with things more important to her rather than answering questions on her own AMA.
Assume (in fact, hope) it's bad manners rather than anything challenging to her family.

She's answered loads of questions and got ripped to bits. I don't blame her for staying away.

I work in secondary education and totally agree with what Clare is saying.

Also, GCSE maths and English aren't easy, weighing fruit and veg at a supermarket once a week isn't going to get you a pass. Reading the screen during Minecraft isn't going to teach you enough to pass English grammar either.

As a bit of a lazy cow though the thought of not having to say it's bedtime now, or get up for school certainly appeals.

Done an AMA. Answered everything. Dealt with a bit of hostility.
Op could do what she did earlier in and only answer he questions she wants to answer.