I'm a radical unschooler AMA

[OutOfControlSpirals]

I'm a radical unschooling mum, which basically means I've taken the principals of unschooling, where a child is free to learn what they want, when they want, and applied it to every aspect of our lives. So my children have the same freedoms that I do when it comes to eating/sleeping/learning etc.

Maybe in her laxity she forgot to set her alarm so she could be back here for 8 am on a Saturday to continue asking incoming questions from fascinated MNetters?

@clairetree1

I want to homeschool (not unschool though) my kids (if they really want to go to school they can of course). My idea of it is homeschool primary. If they are very academic and have their eyes set on something like oxbridge then they can do the 11+ and go to grammar (precisely because I read on the website of an Oxford college pretty much what you wrote about the workload issue and honestly i don’t relish the stress of artificially piling on the pressure like that).

Otherwise if they have less high power ambitions (including a university that isn’t so prestigious - plenty let you do a foundation course).

I don’t want to make them undisciplined though. I just want to focus more on project based work (I dunno if you know about the lab school in San Francisco set up by the guy who makes Khan Academy) but that inspired me a lot - at primary level I’d set the projects but the older they get the more autonomy they’d have over what they wanted to do, but still with some requirement to cover ceirtain areas - so imagine the project was to get a rocket into the exosphere, they’d have to learn the chemistry required, the maths, devise a method for tracking the rocket’s ascent, the legal and health and safety issues, how to do a risk assessment, how to get permission from the relèvent authority, the actual physical skills to build the rocket and so on. I feel like as they got older the projects they chose to do would naturally narrow toward a career that interests them. The heavy focus on seasonality and the calendar you find in Steiner also inspires me a lot. Assuming they’re still with me and not at grammar I also want them to be working from age 14 both as an opportunity to develop more independence like they might at school otherwise and also because I don’t think anything really focuses you on how you want to live your adult life as much as actually working and experiencing that environment and the challenges (and rewards) that come with it. Like if I could get them a French style apprenticeship that would be awesome.

If they do want to go to university I’d probably get them to do GCSEs and alevels because that’s the system in the uk (although I’d be tempted now that fees have gone up to try SATs and ACTs and aim for an American university instead...) but it feels like a distraction more than the main event. But otherwise are you saying there’s no way to manage a more vocational tragectory as a homeschooler?

I’m going to be honest that I feel like “real life” has been a lot more work for me than school but of course part of that is because I didn’t do any of the work expected of me in school. I feel like I’ve developed a lot more discipline in the years since leaving home than I ever did in school. Partly I want to recreate the expectations of a workplace environment with projects and interaction with clients and vendors and the regulatory system and working on real problems. So where unschoolers are “learning facilitators” I’m envisioning a role closer to “project manager”.

Do you think this wouldn’t work?

She's answered loads of questions and got ripped to bits. I don't blame her for staying away

The OP selected the questions she replied to and as a home edder who tried to understand what she was saying, Id never heard of radical unschooling, I was left none the wiser as to what it was about. It was all very wishy washy.

There was also an element of 'Im a better parent than the rest of you because I home schoo'l that I recognised as being an unfortunate part of some parents make up. But that said parents who don't home school can also have an unfortunate manner about them when it comes to their choices. People were as bad as each other.

I think I decided the Op was doing herself and her AMA no favours when she mentioned you would find very few home schooled children in prison.

Agree Martha. The most desirable creative industry jobs are extremely hard to get into, and have high entry standards. The classic one is ‘he wants to be a video games designer’, because video games are a passion.

The video games industry is massiveley, massiveley competitive. You would usually need a degree in graphic design/video game design, have a good knowledge of statistics and need plenty of internships and experience.

I’ve met people who trot out ‘video games are his passion, that’s what he’s going to work in.’ Well, video games are entertainment, that’s why he enjoys them more than say, chemistry. And I can’t imagine many people in the video games industry DONT love games. To get in, you need a strong academic record, disciple, drive and passion.

Zzzzz - well if it’s not the best and preferred option, and only a last resort, why is being trotted our as the best possible thing for children?!

Which is it, a best possible solution to children who are struggling and are less likely to do well generally, or the perfect paradise for incredibly able children who are lucky enough to have oh so enlightened parents?

I don’t think anyone’s saying it’s the wrong choice to take a child with ASD out of mainstream education if they are stressed and not coping. But that’s very different to withdrawing a very capable, neurotypical child from a structured education. What most people on this thread is that the latter is not generally in their best interests, and is more about the parents odd world views and political beliefs

I don’t doubt that at all but you can’t say the home ed is definitely responsible. As I understand it parents are more likely to turn to home ed if they have a child who is having difficulties to start with, whatever they may be, within the mainstream system

yes, that may be the case, although in my experience young children with such difficulties do gradually improve and mature during their time at school, but not necessarily if they are removed from school permanently.

Level 1 & 2 courses as you mention - why is this a problem by the way? They'll get there in the end

well, no they don't, because free education in this country ends at 19, its not indefinite! ( except for English and maths GCSE -you can continue to study for these for free at night school, if you can get a place)

You put someone on a level 2 course at 16 in very few circumstances. they may be naturally low ability academically, and be working to their full potential, they may not speak good enough English for a level 3 course, they may have bombed badly in GCSEs, for some reason, cannabis or exclusion being the main two that spring to mind, or they may have missed out on their education through their parents removing them from the system.

that can sometimes work out, a condensed, intense level 2 course at 16, going on to level 3 (BTEC or A levels) at 17, university at 19.

But it is one shot, and if they miss it, they run out of free education. Starting at level 1 at 16, which some home edders do, they will miss out, so yes, you can compensate by doing a foundation degree, or go to a private school, that's an extra £9 000- £12 000 fees, there are loans, of course, but not an unlimited amount of years of loans, so even then, there is no leeway, and a limit to how far you can go.

so a motivated and intelligent home edder can end up irrecoverably behind, through no fault of their own

I'm also interested in where you live that you're coming across such swathes of Home Ed children with such terrible outcomes, because I live in London

I also live in London, but the college where I have been recruiting is very much a "sink" college, where we take literally hundreds of applicants every year that have been turned down elsewhere, so the catchment area is huge. We are the very last chance for many of our students, we take a lot of young people with criminal records, history of drug abuse, etc, and give them another chance - so in that sense its a brilliant place.

I don’t think anyone’s saying it’s the wrong choice to take a child with ASD out of mainstream education if they are stressed and not coping

My son was never in Education. I knew from the beginning it wouldn't work for him because what I wanted for him had to be done at home.

Do you think this wouldn’t work?

@dieantword

I would not like to advise you, because I don't know your children or your local schools! But home edding can work.

My concerns with your suggestions of project work is that they would spend a long time on very narrow areas, which would be covered much faster at a school,

is there any reason why they can't go to school AND do project work with you, and get a job at 14?

It does again seem to me that they are not gaining anything that lots of parents don't do with their school attending children anyway.

Still, if thats the route for you, then go ahead! I would only suggest that if you know which schools, colleges universities they might be interested in later, you contact those institutions directly at an early stage, and explain that you are home educating, but are likly to be making an application to them later, and what would they like to see in that application?

good luck!

Many Home Ed parents withdraw NT children due to bullying, I know parents who do it because their work involves extensive travel and it was a choice between never seeing their kids or taking them with them. I know a notable amount who did it because their kids were just plain miserable and losing hope in that system. Saying it's usually about "odd world views and political beliefs" is a sweeping and ignorant generalisation about a parenting choice that you don't actually appear to know much about. I know ONE parent like that, and her children are as impatient with her views as everyone else and robustly riducule her whenever she starts.

I would say we are pretty good at assessing who to accept now, and probably half of the home educated students we accept go on to go on to get the university place they want.
What proportion of the institutionally educated ones get the university place they want?

well over 90%

That’s obviously not what I’m saying, but the right course for a child with additional needs who is struggling and unable to cope is obviously not the right thing for the majority.

In the same way we wouldn’t send the majority of children to a specialist school, unless they really needed it, even though specialists schools are nurturing and wonderful places.

I think the issue is basically this:

Schools do everything they can to prepare children for a successful working life - that is their aim,

(of course we do everything we can to prepare them for a happy personal life too, but that is not our main function)

Some parents disagree with putting their children through what it takes to prepare for a working life.

That's fine, but if you do it differently, there is a risk you might end up with children less prepared for a successful working life.

Happier children, maybe, and some do grow into happy and successful adults, but a significant number do not.

one thing I must add though, with all the thousands and thousands of children who have passed through my hands down the decades...

EVERY CHILD who's parents are trying to do the right thing for them is better off than the children who's parents are not interested and don't care, almost always ( maybe even always) irrespective of what that parent ends up doing.

2 parents both in fulltime work, kids in afterschool care, after they get home and run through the dinner/baths/homework how much time do they have together at the end of the day? Thats productive and useful?

OP, it’s posts like this that are the reason you’re getting a hard time I think. For a lot of families there is no other option than for both parents to work and rely on after school childcare.

In my family we couldn’t afford for either one of us not to work. But your post reads like you think we’re not doing as much for our children as you are doing for yours.

Do you think that a strongly held view like your own that HEed adults are less likely to progress plays into that?

why would it? unless directly involved in enrollment, the staff wouldn't even know. might guess, in some cases.

@Clairetree1 the only reason is I feel at the end of the school day they’re not going to want to spend - on top of whatever homework they have - another 4-6hrs working. (That and the calendar thing which is out of sync - we do for instance Easter at a different time to the Western church and thus British schools - and I want to spend lent focusing on religion and spirituality and then work more during the summer to make up for it). I have to say I never did the kind of projects I’m imagining as a child. I wouldn’t have known where to start. I’m not talking making crafts or some other faff but addressing more complex problems in teams just like you would in the workplace. Obviously I can’t be too specific because my oldest child is 2 and I have no idea where their focus or abilities will be :p

I have to admit I’m not sure why “deep and narrow” is necessarily worse than “broad and shallow” though? Although I want a bit of both (I’m imagining a split of say 3/5ths of the day in either direct instruction or independently working on specific lessons and the other 2/5 on projects). It’s especially important to me that they - regardless of where they want to go in life - get a good basic grasp of philosophy, civics, media literacy, scientific literacy (the ability to read a paper, compare to the broader literature and enough understanding of statistics to know what it’s claims mean) and financial literacy and that kind of thing which I think are important to navigate every day life.

Or that underlying disability plays a part?

have you not read what I've said about the school? almost all students are severely disadvantaged, in one way or another.

Dieantwood - that sounds really lovely and important. Why do you feel you can’t do that while they are attending school?

Muslim children for example, usually attend school and have a religious education as well, that focuses on spirituality, civics etc.

I have to admit I’m not sure why “deep and narrow” is necessarily worse than “broad and shallow” though?

I suppose its just a broader basis from which to make choices, as an adult and throughout life.

It’s especially important to me that they - regardless of where they want to go in life - get a good basic grasp of philosophy, civics, media literacy, scientific literacy (the ability to read a paper, compare to the broader literature and enough understanding of statistics to know what it’s claims mean) and financial literacy and that kind of thing which I think are important to navigate every day life.

but this doesn't sound narrow, though.

it can work, I have seen it work, just keep yourself informed about wht is needed in applications to schools and colleges later, as I said.

its heart breaking when parents think they have prepared their children to apply for A levels, and we watch the reluctant realisation that us, their last hope of a school, are not going to accept them....

They are often people who have thought they were doing everything right, and have tried hard.

like I said earlier up the thread, the most common reason for turning a student down is not their exam grades, but the length of time they took their exams over, and the gaps when they have not studied a subject at all

The most common one is getting A* in maths at 12 or 13, then not studying maths at all for several years, and wanting to do it at A level aged 16 - not only can they not study maths, they often cannott be accepted onto A levels at all, due to not having 5 GCSE taken in within 2 years, including maths.....

such children often get offered a GCSE retake year instead, and we quite often get tears and disbelief, ( from the parents) followed by a further visit a week later to ask if the GCSE resit place is still available, which is might or might not be.......

worse case scenario, getting bumped down to level 1 at this stage, then being too old for levels at all when you work your way up.

these are the pitfalls to be aware of, and watch out for. If they are good students and we give them a reference, the local private schools will take them at 19 for A levels, but it costs thousands

Well because the holidays don’t line up.

And that’s not the main focus, I really am not keen on the inflexibility of the national curriculum. I don’t think it is very good for children who either have a very clear idea of what they want to do or for children who are not very academic and the focus on exams over and above actual learning seems less than ideal even for academic children. I admit my education was at a school who were entirely an exam factory (teachers did our coursework, all lessons were heavy on exam technique and what to expect on the paper, curiosity and deviation from the syllabus was discouraged (one of my favourite teachers was fired for “wasting” class time on things not on the syllabus - other children actually complained because they too were only concerned about their marks and not about actually learning anything). I’m sceptical of the idea it’s a good environment. I’m sure not all schools are like that but in my discussions with parents it’s still a major problem and a lot of them are.

I agree there may not be much time in the average school day to do projects and things like that with your children, but there still is some time in the day for extra curricular activities, and people tend to underestimate how many days are NOT school days, I think it works out roughly 3/7 days in the year children are not at school