I'm a Freemason AMA

[FreemasonAMA]

I will not go into some details, but I will try to answer as many questions as I can.

I'm slightly surprised that others are referring to it as not being a 'true' version

It's not her fault. She doesn't know anything on the subject of Freemasonry other than what her DP has told her, and he is in the conservative branch of Freemasonry which refuses to recognise the more liberal Freemasons including women Freemasons.

I’m not the cats mother. I do know other things, I was just trying to explain/chat/discuss a certain point I take issue with. I’d thank you to not presume to know all that I know. I’m done.

Not all religions require beliefs in fact that’s a very modern way of looking at religion. Many religions are purely ritualistic - of course lex orandi lex credendi and all that but it’s the actions that preceded beliefs in most cases.

Protestants don’t really follow the “same teachings” as Catholics I wouldn’t say. I deliberately didn’t pick Protestants though because Protestantism is directly a protest against the Catholic Church (it’s in the name) rather than a split off from it like the Orthodox or even the high church Anglicans. Like you can say who is the original church of the oriental Orthodox, the eastern Orthodox and the Catholics - except by accepting the dogma of one of those churches that it’s the “true” church - there’s really no objective way to tell (I say this as a convert to Eastern Orthodoxy!). The Protestants are obviously a movement against their parent church though - it’s not a split but a new creation.

Oh yes, regarding the thoughts and language that a fellow FM might use regarding love, tolerance etc that you said would make him/her identifiable, could you elaborate on this?

Non-Masons nearly always think that there is only one Freemasonry and 'regard' us all the same.

That is so not true and very dismissive. I knew what esoteric meant before I read this thread I am sure lots of posters did. Your continued belief that the mason network is inheritently better and more knowledgeable than the general public is a bit insulting actually and is the same attitude of most of the masons I know in my personal life and have met in my work.

Only saying my DP (who is quite senior) says that the order of the star hasn’t received all of the knowledge there is about masonry, and the original lodge won’t give it to them

True.

also that the lodge that split and accepts females never had all the senior knowledge - but that’s taking their word for it, there will never be any proof either way

Wrong. Either he just doesn't know or he is lying to you.

The split happened well after the Grand Lodge de France was already at the highest degrees = 'had all the senior knowledge' in your words. It was already no different than Grand Lodge of England.

The reason for the split was that Grand Orient changed the wording of the 1st article of its Constitution from this:

"Its [Freemasonry's] principles are the existence of God, the immortality of the soul, and human solidarity. It considers liberty of conscience as an inherent right of each man and excludes no one because of his beliefs"

... to this:

"Its principles are liberty of conscience and human solidarity. It excludes no one because of his beliefs".

That is the schism between Grand Orient and United Grand Lodge of England (your DP's branch), which has remained entrenched in the misogynistic and religion-dependent viewpoint of the 18th Century.

Thank you for answering my questions @FreemasonAMA. You have challenged a lot of my assumptions about Freemasonry - this has been really fascinating. I also admire that way you've been so calm and patient in the face of challenging questions and some hostility.

Thank you for this comment @PatchworkGirl This is all I wanted from this AMA - to challenge assumptions and replace prejudices with the minimum knowledge one would need to then research on their own if they want to.

I've been googling around this topic on the back of reading your fascinating thread, and on the website of The Order of Women Freemasons (UK), under requirements for being considered for membership, it states: "... you must: Believe in a Supreme Being... Be of good character". How does this "believing in a Supreme Being" square with your insistence on FM rationality and repeated denunciation of woo?

On the same website, you can see that The Order Of Women Freemasons is a small breakaway branch from liberal mixed obedience International Co-Masonry (Le Droit Humain) that has then approached the more conservative ways of United Grand Lodge Of England, including requiring candidates to believe in God.

UGLE still doesn't recognise them as Freemasons, though.

And how is "good character" defined? Is it, for example, something as measurable as not having a criminal record, or is some other moral value judgment brought to bear?

It is basically the judgement of the Freemason proposing her membership, although a criminal record would be very difficult to defend when describing her before a vote.

It sounds almost like a self help/support group. Very welcoming and cosy.

It is welcoming and cosy, and there is a lot of support when you need it but it is not just that.

But I could affiliate myself with any organisation/group that, at it's core, would actively choose to exclude me because I'm a woman.

I could not, either. Thankfully, women's Freemasonry does not exclude women

Yes there are women only and mixed groups, but that is not support, it is appeasement.

I have been trying to explain this with quite some detail in previous posts. If you read back a few pages, I think you will find it all. Women Freemasons are no different than men freemasons. We have the same symbols, rituals, degrees, and we follow the same Rite. I have been to men's meetings and ceremonies and can confirm that they are no different than ours.

How do women do the left breast part of the ritual? The tit-ual if you will.

You asked why people believed that Freemasons were devil worshipers and I explained that a lot of people associate them with groups from that period and of that ilk.

Surely only the very ignorant would make that association in their heads.

Imagine coming back from lunch to find your new assistant sodomising everyone, drinking the blood of cats whilst in a trance and doing automatic drawings of Horus.

I find that joke far less amusing than I would one about finding the new Catholic colleague sodomosing everyone. There have been far more sodomising pedophiles in the Catholic church than there have ever been Freemasons sodomising people while drinking cat blood in a trance.

Do you get the 20% off lunch deals in holborn like the men do?

Sorry I forgot to answer this question when you first asked it. It must be important to you. The answer is: It never occurred to me to check.

I have been to men's meetings and ceremonies and can confirm that they are no different than ours.

That’s the thing though isn’t it.. you’ve been to them. When they clearly know that there is a women in the room, they could change 100% of what would be going on if you weren’t there. You’ve been to the lodges that will allow a woman to come in and watch, by virtue of you being there.

Sorry. I did say I was done. Am now.

It is important to me because it’s a clear and concise example of male freemason privilege and nepotism in its most basic form. If lunch is free, what else is...

But what about the ordinary bloke in the street... the waiter, the taxi driver, the hosptial porter, the handyman... it sounds very elitist. Can't they have the opportunity to go on the personal journey like others? Do you know ordinary people who are masons?

Asked and answered downthread. It's not elitist, people in those jobs can and do join if they are interested. There are many "ordinary people" in my obedience - teachers, pharmacists, retired women including an old librarian.

Or are they the sort of people who would be unable to understand the intricacies of Masonry (this is what I'm gathering from the word 'esoteric').

You are gathering stuff that is not there. Anyone can understand and follow Freemasonry if they want to. Esotericism isn't "exclude people who can't understand the intricacies". It is "don't just tell it all like in a lecture, let a person have their own journey and figure it all out slowly, on their own".

The new catholic assistant wouldn’t have a chance to drink cat blood - The masonic one would have got the job.

Surely only the very ignorant would make that association in their heads.

Well, the masons being woo was pretty much the consensus of page 1 of the thread as well as the general public, you asked where it came from, I offered you a response based on the practises of actual real life woo masons and now I’m ignorant. Lovely

I have seen first hand how Freemasonry has impacted on promotion within the police force. If you weren't a mason, you wouldn't get promoted. Is that still the case?

Do you know why UGLE - using their own reasoning rather than speculation about inner motivations - do not allow women?

Because that's how it was in Ye Olde Times. Many UGLE Freemasons would vote to accept women tomorrow but their "management" does not want to change.

They will eventually have to, just like the Catholic church had to eventually accept that Galileo was right and contraception is not a bad thing, or face irrelevance and continued decline in numbers as years go by.

I don’t believe that women’s Freemasons (of any lodge or order nessesarily) will ever know all there is to know

Nobody can know all there is to know.

Regarding Freemasonry, however, we do: Women do go up to the last degree there is in Freemasonry, anywhere, and so do the mixed and men-only lodges in the liberal branches of Freemasonry.

Stop believing everything your DP tells you and do your own research.

you’re entitled to think differently of course.

Why, thank you

Only one of us actually knows this subject, 31weeks. If you disagree, have your own AMA and I'll come ask you a few questions of my own.

How do you get to compare booklets from both sides? Males that are in both lodges, or old copies in archives?

Men who are in UGLE compare their booklets with men who are in Grand Orient, who then share them with us women.

Did you really think that your DP is the only Freemason in the world who disobeys the rule that says he should not share this information with anyone on the outside?

Catholicism is still the most populous religion in the world, I wouldn’t go singing a dirge for it just yet.

Back in the days when I was looking into Catholicism there were still a few who consider that the theory of relativity proves the Catholic Church was right to reject Galileo’s theory.

Then there’s the (rather playful) take on it that Feyeraband takes in his book Against Method :p

I don’t think they’ll ever cave on contraception (as a corporate body, plenty of Catholics do of course disobey). They’ve gone into such fine detail with Theology of the Body now and even if it’s not been formally declared dogma in a council or anything it’s been pretty much fully integrated into Catholic thought.

the perceived 'higher being' that you describe that are Freemasons. I'm sure you don't mean to sound patronizing, but to me that is how it comes across.

I hope not. That is not what I have said or meant.

'esoteric/introspection/self development' reminds me a lot of Rudolf Steiner's work*

That hurts my feelings

I talked about introspection, bettering oneself, building a more tolerant, rational, better world one person at a time. I said anyone can do it if they want to, and that it is the work one needs to do on himself or herself, that nobody else can do for them.

If that sounds cryptic, that is not intentional. Introspection as in "Who am I? Why do I act this way? I want to change this or that about myself" and then working on herself to change that habit or aggression or irrational beliefs, which would be an example of self development.

All this 'you wouldn't understand' and 'I wouldn't expect you to understand'

You would, but it's hard to explain it when you have no experience or knowledge on the subject. It's difficult like trying to explain a Shakespeare play would be. You can of course understand if you properly research it on your own and talk to Freemasons you know. They will of course not read out the rituals to you (unless you come across 31week's DP who I hear has loose lips ) but they would collaborate what I have said about what Freemasonry is.

regarding the thoughts and language that a fellow FM might use regarding love, tolerance etc that you said would make him/her identifiable, could you elaborate on this?

I won't do that, sorry.

"Non-Masons nearly always think that there is only one Freemasonry and 'regard' us all the same."
That is so not true and very dismissive. I knew what esoteric meant before I read this thread I am sure lots of posters did. Your continued belief that the mason network is inheritently better and more knowledgeable than the general public is a bit insulting actually and is the same attitude of most of the masons I know in my personal life and have met in my work.

I'm not sure how you think that is a reply to my sentence, which simply says that non-Masons almost never know that there are different branches in Freemasonry and think we are all the same (that all Freemasons exclude women, that all Freemasons believe in God, etc).

And I only said that of the claim that the liberal branch of Freemasonry might have less 'influence' than the conservative UGLE. That is not true because practically nobody outside of Freemasonry is even aware that there are different branches.

How do women do the left breast part of the ritual?

Differently. Sorry, I'm not going to write down the ritual.

When they clearly know that there is a women in the room, they could change 100% of what would be going on if you weren’t there. You’ve been to the lodges that will allow a woman to come in and watch, by virtue of you being there.

@31weeks I'm really sorry that you know so little about Freemasonry that you think a Masonic lodge would change their rituals and ceremonies for anyone, let alone someone they are humouring (which you seem to suggest is what happens when women Freemasons visit men's lodges).

I don't know how else to help you see that you really don't know what you are talking about. Please ask your DP if what you just said can possibly happen. He would be the first to tell you that a lodge would just not let me attend an Initiation if they did not first accept me as a Freemason, and that no lodge will ever change their rituals and ceremonies to fool or humour anyone.

promotion within the police force. If you weren't a mason, you wouldn't get promoted. Is that still the case?

It sounds unlikely but I wouldn't know from experience as I don't know anyone in the police.