I'm a Freemason AMA

[FreemasonAMA]

I will not go into some details, but I will try to answer as many questions as I can.

Hi Patchwork, yes he is essentially breaking the rules but believes marriage/our trust is more important than a Masonic rule. He only discusses it with me, it’s not as if he chats about it at work or the pub. It’s not even a proper secret that could harm anyone anyway as the OP has explained, it’s more about self development.

what’s your take on the French Revolution?

As is well known, most prominent French Revolutionaries such as Voltaire, Jean-Paul Marat, Marquis de Lafayette, Marquis de Condorcet, Mirabeau, Georges Danton, Duke of Orléans, and Hébert were Freemasons. Revolutionary propaganda frequently used Masonic symbols to mean enlightenment and justice to be brought by the Revolution.

it is beyond doubt that Masonic thought and ideals influenced the French Revolution, as evidenced most clearly in its motto: Freedom, Equality, Fraternity. It is also not surprising that free-thinking people, intellectuals, people who wanted to change the world into a better, freer and more equal place were Freemasons - especially at that time.

Assuming you meant to ask whether I believe French Freemasonry as an organisation masterminded the Revolution, I am skeptical on that subject. I don't claim to know an awful lot about the French Revolution, but the differences in opinion between some of these figures suggest that political and personal ideals sometimes clashed. I don't believe that these prominent figures were following the same script.

Secularisation followed the French Revolution of 1789, which inevitably led to Freemasons who demanded freedom of conscience to break away from United Grand Lodge and continue their craft under Grand Orient.

I hope that answers your question. If you have any comments on this interesting topic, I would like to hear them.

to even pretend there is no networking element to the organisation is an insult to the intelligence

There is a networking element to any social organisation. People meet through a common interest or activity, become friends, and sometimes call on each other for help. What I was saying was that networking is not the goal of Freemasonry. Mingling with people of higher social and professional status can your career in some way, but you will probably be disappointed if you become a Freemason with that as your goal.

I have seen such people drop out quickly, once they realised that it is not a winning ticket but an intellectual pursuit that requires introspection and conscious work on one's own faults.

my father always felt hiso wn father was out far too much at constant council meetings, masonry meetings, XYZ board meetings - bit like being a golf widow really. Most people with young families are not out even one night a week as bed time is such hard work with toddlers that is usually needs both of you there pulling your weight.

Many of us have taken time out for a few years when their DC were born. It's never been a problem. You continue when you can, if you want to.

The biggest problem a lot of us see with free masonry is the concern they would favour their own. I have seen it - people join, mix with others, get the advantage, the connection; now it's probably no different from putting work the say of someone who is from your synagogue or church and it's human nature

I think that's what it is for the most part - personal connections that happen in any social organisation. Additionally, a Freemason recruiter would also assume a certain intellectual, mental and moral strength in a Freemason compared to the general population. I supposed a Catholic recruiter might feel the same way about a candidate who is a devout Catholic.

but it was such a concern I think judges were required to declare if they were masons when they had no duty to declare anything else of a similar nature

As I recall, the problem at the time was concern over conflict of interest. I remember a photo of policemen having a great time at a garden party with men under police investigation.

I also thank the poster for an interesting thread

@Xenia I have found many of your posts informative and interesting over the years. I'm happy to have returned the favour

"I watched that Sky documentary on a young mason or two or three of them which was interesting - one had to m emorise lots of stuff off by heart."

I can't think of anything memorised aside from some ritual Q&As (wording). It was just a couple of sentences.

I once briefly dated a mason and I remember getitng a photograph and guess what it was - not his penis (thank God) but a picture of an ornate chair in the mason's hall - . Did not quite work as a seduction tactic I'm afraid.... laughing as I type.

Excellent No, I imagine that didn't make you want to rip his clothes out

I've been googling around this topic on the back of reading your fascinating thread, and on the website of The Order of Women Freemasons (UK), under requirements for being considered for membership, it states:

"Those of any race or faith can join the Order of Women Freemasons, but you must:
Believe in a Supreme Being - it does not matter which religion you belong to
Be over 21
Be of good character"

How does this "believing in a Supreme Being" square with your insistence on FM rationality and repeated denunciation of woo?

And how is "good character" defined? Is it, for example, something as measurable as not having a criminal record, or is some other moral value judgment brought to bear?

Thank you for the thread.

This thread is so interesting. I've learnt a few new things.
It sounds almost like a self help/support group. Very welcoming and cosy. I need that just now.
But I could affiliate myself with any organisation/group that, at it's core, would actively choose to exclude me because I'm a woman.
Yes there are women only and mixed groups, but that is not support, it is appeasement.

Could not that was meant to be 😳

Are you saying that black people are not allowed to join the masons because of the colour of their skin? In the UK. In 2018

I should have explained, sorry. When I said "If women and black people are excluded...", I was thinking of Freemasonry in the US where conservative branch is also prevalent, and where black lodges were not recognised until 1990 and black Initiates were met racist opposition as recently as 2009.

Do you genuinely not see that to all intents and purposes you are not a Freemason?

I don't because it is not true.

You are a breakaway group that call itself a similar name

Do you believe that Protestants are just a breakaway group who are not real Christians?

doesn’t have the same “advantages” that the conservative group does?

You seem to think unlawful and even criminal activities are "advantages". I don't think they are, and I would not want to be in an organisation whose purpose are those "advantages".

Can you honestly not see that esoteric/secret nature of the United grand lodge

Esoteric doesn't mean secret.

All Freemasonry is esoteric, not just the United Grand Lodge Of England. We are esoteric. Grand Lodge of Scotland is esoteric. All Masonic obediences and their lodges are esoteric.

... means there will be deals done, backhanders paid, crimes gone unpunished, because people are not all in it for self development.

First of all, you need to look up the word 'esoteric'. It doesn't mean what you think it does.

Secondly, criminals commit crimes. Corrupt people take part in corruption. It is not because they joined a noble organisation that promotes rational thought, introspection, and self development (into a better person) that they do these things.

"human nature isn’t so giving, it’s a lot more selfish."

I am well aware of the shortcomings of human nature. Selfishness, aggression, cruelty, propensity to believe in woo - That is why we need to make a conscious effort to hone our intellect while growing love and tolerance in our hearts. "Be the change you want to see in the world", as they say. It is extremely difficult to change one's negative traits or even the smallest habit, but it is not impossible. Nobody else can do it for you.

I’ve seen the police being called when someone leaves the pub to drink drive home. Number plate, route home etc all provided. They are back at the bar with their car keys the next night with no issue. Because they are Masons.

Because they know a corrupt policeman, rather. I don't doubt that the same policeman's cousin or son also gets the same favours, although they are not Freemasons.

I don't doubt your story but this behaviour is not normal in the conservative branches of Freemasonry, either, where I know a lot of members. This is not how they live.

I understood that the Freemasons also encompassed other groups such as the Hermatic Order of the Golden Dawn. There is crossover between membership and that’s where the woo comes in.

Encompassed? Crossover? Freemasons are free to live their lives as they wish. If a couple believed that they could unlock the mysteries of the universe through "magic" and form a different, entirely separate organisation in pursuit of that goal, that is their prerogative and hardly the fault of Freemasonry.

Aleister Crowley was, after all, a Freemason and definitely lacked moral fibre.

Freemasonry provides the setting and the tools for its members to lead a more rational and virtuous life, but sometimes it just doesn't take. It is not 100% foolproof, not even close.

Nonetheless, any list of Freemasons will give you at least 50 scientists, inventors, thinkers, philosophers who have positively influenced the course of history for every 1 despicable woo merchant you can think of.

I didn’t say it was the fault of Freemasons. You asked why people believed that Freemasons were devil worshipers and I explained that a lot of people associate them with groups from that period and of that ilk. Sir Arthur Conan Doyle for all his brilliance was terribly woo. The secrecy doesn’t help the cause either because people are also free to make assumptions about who is a member and who isn’t.

Sort of poo poos the automatic assumption that a Freemason would be a better employee than a regular joe, though. Imagine coming back from lunch to find your new assistant sodomising everyone, drinking the blood of cats whilst in a trance and doing automatic drawings of Horus.

Do you get the 20% off lunch deals in holborn like the men do?

BBC England reports only 4,700 lady masons in the UK. www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.bbc.com/news/amp/uk-41804543

That is not the total number of women freemasons in the UK. As your link also says, that is the number of women in The Order Of Women Freemasons only, which is a smaller branch that broke away from International Co-Masonry (Le Droit Humain). They work along the same lines as you DP's United Grand Lodge Of England , including a requirement of a belief in God, but UGLE still doesn't recognise them as Freemasons.

Nonetheless, any list of Freemasons will give you at least 50 scientists, inventors, thinkers, philosophers who have positively influenced the course of history for every 1 despicable woo merchant you can think of

But what about the ordinary bloke in the street... the waiter, the taxi driver, the hosptial porter, the handyman... it sounds very elitist. Can't they have the opportunity to go on the personal journey like others? Or are they the sort of people who would be unable to understand the intricacies of Masonry (this is what I'm gathering from the word 'esoteric')

Do you know ordinary people who are masons?

established link to groups commonly perceived to be satanic, such as Thelema and The Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn

Freemasonry has no link to Thelema or The Hermetic Order Of The Golden Dawn. That their founders were Freemasons does not mean that Freemasonry as an organisation supported or condoned them.

Out of millions of Freemasons in all corners of the world, a few might be sociopaths who do sociopathic things with their friends. It does not mean that their groups is "linked" to Freemasonry. (If they were found out, they would be kicked out of their lodge)

“I’ve visited men’s lodges etc” - So you’ve been and completed rituals with the grand lodge masons?

Yes, I have attended the meetings of men-only lodges and taken part in their rituals. Obviously not the lodges of the conservative branch of Freemasonry that your DP is in, because they don't accept women.

One recent example was when I attended the Initiation of a (male) friend in a men-only lodge. He was pleased and rather surprised to see me at the ceremony, as he did not know that I am a Freemason and certainly did not expect me there

you can’t know that you’re not missing out when you haven’t been in a grand order lodge

Liberal side's men-only obediences have rituals and ceremonies that are virtually identical to ours (women's) and they differ on few and insignificant points with (your DP's) UGLE's, notably regarding belief in God. This is not a secret. If you managed to find part of the text of UGLE's initiation ceremony on the loony website of a conspiracy theorist, you should have no trouble imagining that we (Freemasons) have had the opportunity to read and compare the actual booklets from both sides.

Your understanding that women's Freemasonry is watered down and inferior to men's is entirely based on Eastern Star, which is indeed a "watered down" paramasonic (not Masonic) organisation intended for the wives & daughters of Masons on the conservative side who don't want to make women Freemasons.

Hopefully you understand by now, after 4 days and 340 posts in this AMA, that Eastern Star is not what I mean by women Freemasons. So please stop this frankly ignorant and ridiculous insistence that there are no women Freemasons. If you want to become one, contact a lodge near you. If you believe your DP and agree that women can't become Freemasons, don't. In either case, I hope that you have benefitted from this thread and will continue to educate yourself through online resources outside of those linked to your DP's conservative branch of Freemasonry.

Do you know why UGLE - using their own reasoning rather than speculation about inner motivations - do not allow women?

If it is a word or phrase from the rituals that lets the judge in court or the arresting policeman or the job interviewer know that you are a Freemason

I have trouble believing that sort of thing actually happens in a real courtroom. If a criminal thinks he can get preferential treatment from a judge, whether it is because they went to the same school, came from the same village, or are second-degree cousins, surely he would let the judge know in some other way - a note, a phone call? A cryptic phrase shouted in the general direction of the judge in court is not likely to make a good impression and it would attract attention to this corruption attempt.

then that would explain the secrecy. It wouldn’t work if phrases were known by lay people. So could explain the need for secrecy.

There are actual secret words at each degree meant for a travelling Mason (as in the old days when operative Masons were travelling to different towns to build cathedrals) to prove his professional credentials in a strange lodge that have stayed on as tradition in this day. However, I have never, not once, seen or heard of anyone who uses those words in conversation with strangers to introduce themselves as Freemasons.

In my experience, we recognise each other from our approach to certain subjects like love, tolerance, scientific thought, and talk of certain symbols that have their places in rituals.

Do you have many ethnic minorities in your Lodge/Order?

Yes.

Hopefully you understand by now, after 4 days and 340 posts in this AMA, that Eastern Star is not what I mean by women Freemasons. So please stop this frankly ignorant and ridiculous insistence that there are no women Freemasons.

Yes, I clearly understand hopefully you know by now that all I literally meant was that you will never know if the grand lodge of England shares everything it does in its lodges with your ones. That’s all. I don’t believe that women’s Freemasons (of any lodge or order nessesarily) will ever know all there is to know, you’re entitled to think differently of course. You’ve just said yourself you’ve never been to UGLE (obviously) so you won’t nessesarily experience the same things or learn the same things, that I’ve been told they allegedly won’t share with women.

I’m not disputing you’re a “freemason”. I’m disputing the fact that you”ll ever know all there is to know as a freemason, because I believe they will not tell any lodges that allow women the whole deal. That’s not your fault, I’m not saying you’ve done anything wrong.

How do you get to compare booklets from both sides? Males that are in both lodges, or old copies in archives?

And I never said it was the most credible link, it was just an example for posters asking what actually went on at ceremonies.

I hope I’ve been clear. It’s nice you got to support your friend.

I'm slightly surprised that others are referring to it as not being a 'true' version

It's not her fault. She doesn't know anything on the subject of Freemasonry other than what her DP has told her, and he is in the conservative branch of Freemasonry which refuses to recognise the more liberal Freemasons including women Freemasons.

For my question, can you give more details on the degrees? Finally, how many degrees is there, are they subject based?

There are three basic degrees: Apprentice, Fellow, and Master Mason.

A Master Mason can then follow the Scottish Rite or York Rite and continue until the 33rd degree. These are the same in UGLE (conservative side, only men) as well as the liberal side including men and women.

You explore different topics at every degree. There are online Masonic websites that explain this in quite some detail.

Is there certain texts you need to read?

There are no textbooks to study but if you want to read some relevant books, people are happy to recommend their favourites in my experience.

Or debates you need to have? Do you need to 'study' for xx amount of hours?

You prepare presentations and take part in discussions. The "work" is mostly on a personal level - thinking, analysing, trying to implement what you understand in your daily life. It can be as life-changing as you make it.

*Who decides you have passed-is there some kind of exam?

There is no exam. You won't be held back and will progress steadily unless you lose interest and don't attend or make it clear that you don't take it seriously.

There will always be more exclusive, more powerful, more influential and more highly regarded clubs.

This is not the case in Freemasonry. As seen on this thread, practically nobody aside from Freemasons is aware that there are different branches of Freemasonry. Non-Masons nearly always think that there is only one Freemasonry and 'regard' us all the same.

The women’s lodge is no more than Ladies Night in the eyes of the boys.

"Women's lodge" that you are referring to which "the boys" on the conservative side have contact with is called Order Of The Eastern Star. It is a paramasonic organisation that is indeed sadly little more than Ladies' Night.

However, that is not all there is for women in Freemasonry. Numerous women's Masonic obediences and their lodges in all parts of the world are regular Masonic organisations. There are also mixed obediences and numerous lodges under them that accept women, many of whom are at 33rd degree and have their place in the Supreme Council.

Whatever they say it’s more like a religion

How is Freemasonry like a religion if there is no required belief?

So the Grand Orient is to UGLE what the Orthodox are to the Catholics or the Sunni to the Shi’a. So of course one side doesn’t consider the other “real” and the other might but still considers the others “backward”.

This is not a bad metaphor. Better would be UGLE as Catholicism entrenched and Grand Orient as Protestants who wanted Reformation but otherwise followed exactly the same teachings. Except that Freemasonry is not a religion, of course.

I’m not quite sure how you’ve remained so calm with regards to some posters op!

Thank you. Some of it is age and the rest is that Freemasonry taught me tolerance, benevolence, and civility in debate

Interesting thread, thanks OP. One thing that really stands out though is the perceived 'higher being' that you describe that are Freemasons. I'm sure you don't mean to sound patronizing, but to me that is how it comes across. All this 'you wouldn't understand' and 'I wouldn't expect you to understand' whilst not actually offering an explanation as to what the issue to be understood actually e ntails. This sort of repetitive language 'esoteric/introspection/self development' reminds me a lot of Rudolf Steiner's work, I wonder was he a FM?

masons children, do they automatically get membership? Or do they have to be proposed and voted?

There is no hereditary right to membership. Everyone has to be proposed by a Freemason and voted.