Janice Turner interview with Debbie Hayton in the Times

Way way back , in the 1970’s , Vidal Sassoon was doing a phone in. He was explaining how it was necessary not just to wash and condition your hair, but to use a third stage rinsing product, which , oddly enough , no other shampoo company was offering.

Over to the audience ( questions were live then not time delayed). Some bloke rang in …’ and what would you like to ask Vidal, Mr. Bloke?

Mr Bloke ‘ you’re a wanker, mate’

Talk show host ( after moment’s pause for gasping ’ Anything else? ‘

Mr Bloke: ‘Nah’.

I always think of that when I read stuff like Debbie’s.

I missed that gem. That's appalling. Ffs, 'transwidows' are anything but bloody passive. If they were passive victims they'd still be enacting whatever the main character in their lives felt like today. It's taken most of them staggering steps of courage and hardship and planning to escape the abuse they were living with, and to rebuild their own and their children's lives.

😡

That's a harder one to forgive, JT.

Why would Stephanie think Transwidows are passive victims?

They were only doing what she was doing. It is like the women who think they will never be a victim of domestic abuse because they are "strong". Yet you meet so many women who say " I didn't think it would be me "

And, with 100% certainty, having a styling and photoshoot for a weekend supplement.

And quite possibly talking in depth in an interview to a woman journalist.

And every time you walk outside in a dress.

Moreover, it’s harder to demand access to intimate female spaces if that need is erotically motivated.

And what about demanding school children call you 'Miss'?

Is Janice not just letting him speak for himself? Convicted by his own words.

I am always interested when interviewers on radio let trans women rattle on in their masculine voices, demonstrating distinctly male socialisation. When there is fawning then they clearly don’t get it. When they are neutral I assume they do.

Who needs to say anything much when trans women are explaining who they are.

There's a transcript here of an earlier interview (2020) with Stephanie and Debbie Hayton.

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4053058-Debbie-and-Stephanie-Hayton-interview-transcript?reply=100925350

The transcript is in four parts. The link should take you to part one. I don't think there's anything in this one about cross-dressing as a child.

"Hayton’s classic “persistent, consistent and insistent” childhood dysphoria may have led to doctors prescribing puberty blockers and hormones."

But he didn't have "classic" childhood dysphoria. Even in his (almost certainly with at least 5 years subtracted from reality) own account he's just wanging on about tights.

Thank you Morwen!

I've bitten the bullet and read it. Largely because I've seen two women (not even on mumsnet) who have now unsubscribed to the times because of that bloody article.

I don't know if it's because Janice simply doesn't know, but that's an awful lot of words, just to describe a fetishistic cross dresser. They're not exactly rare.

And anyone with half a clue will be reading all of it through that lens. And just seeing me, me, me, look at cross dressing meee.

I mean look at these bloody contradictions. I get hard using women spaces but just assumed all the women were fine with it and they trusted me!! What the fuck?

Moreover, it’s harder to demand access to intimate female spaces if that need is erotically motivated.

For decades, says Hayton, transsexual women have relied upon female goodwill to use their bathrooms and changing rooms, but self-ID destroyed that precious trust.

He's always going to struggle to reconcile the fact that he's got a sexual fetish, with the lobby's narrative that there's nothing sexual to it.

He wants to tell everyone it's sexual, but still retain the air of innocence that transactivation tries to constantly force.

(I realise that it was Stephanie who said the children were a priority, not Debbie, in my previous comment. But that's what you fucking get when you can't use the correct pronouns).

Next she was prescribed testosterone suppressants and female hormones, creating a graph to chart her developing breast size and going on giddy shopping trips. This, says Stephanie, was the hardest point, with Debbie distracted and self-obsessed. Meanwhile Stephanie shouldered the whole domestic load, going to parents’ evening alone so their children wouldn’t be embarrassed by Debbie. Hayton jokes that, alas for wives, “living as a woman” doesn’t involve doing more chores. Eventually, Stephanie asked Debbie to leave the family home, but that crisis point passed and their relationship began to improve.

Hayton's previous comments about social standing being based on breast size were what it made me think of too - so very...odd.

His story does get tweaked a lot. He used to admit that he made Stephanie tell their church and friends, but thats been glossed over now.

But as the tights stories grow, i suppose orher details have to be omitted in these puff pieces.

Any quotes you can share?

“To be clear, I think it's a complete fabrication, but somehow it's become part of the script”

I suspect the “the word eighty and tights made me excited when I was three” story will get ditched in future interviews as it’s such obvious nonsense. DP, who really couldn’t be less interested in all this, snorted at that bit.

I'm not clicking on it, morwen, on principle, would you mind expanding on this comment?

creating a graph to chart her developing breast size

Only the reason I ask is Debbie Hayton is under the impression that big breasted women have more social cachet amongst their peers than small breasted women. (God knows where flat chested women come in. Social pariahs, according to Debbie. Has he ever actually looked at real, non porn star, women?)

I don't believe he told Stephanie when he says he did - it's not exactly something you'd forget!!!

well, according to the other article, apparently he told her that he' done it 'once or twice, but doesn't do it now.'

which, if you've read anything from transwidows, was clearly a big fat lie.

Janice is responding to the comments which is interesting.

I don't believe he told Stephanie when he says he did - it's not exactly something you'd forget!!!

100% agree with this! There's a lot that's not said about his wife and the gaps speak volumes.

I wish someone would press him on the early childhood aspect.

To be clear, I think it's a complete fabrication, but somehow it's become part of the script (cf Eddie Izzard) to retcon AGP compulsions as starting in pre-puberty, preferably in toddlerhood.

It is part of the "It's natural and innate and I can't help it" narrative? It doesn't tie in with what that therapist bloke Burgo was saying, whose apologia for AGP is linked on another thread .

Basically I think getting the key concepts out, "having an affair with yourself", "we're not the nost hard-done-by" etc into the mainstream, are worth a bit of fanning the flames of obvious self-promotion.

I don't think many people are going to be won over by DH himself based on that, the whole thing is done to provoke.

creating a graph to chart her developing breast size
🧐🧐🧐

The photographer/make up artist (?) is a genius he doesn't look like him AT ALL although still looks male. Every-time I see the wedding photo I am struck by how unusually different their levels of attractiveness are & it makes me wonder.

I don't believe he told Stephanie when he says he did - it's not exactly something you'd forget!!!

It's a promo piece - I'm sad that Janice used her considerable talents to promote him, he's had a lifetime of doing it for himself.

But I will say, it takes a lot to shock me, but the extent to which we're being mocked by that marigolds picture has left me flabbergasted.

I don't know if I've got the energy for this having exhaustively covered all the arguments last week.

Are we going to have a fawning thread every time one of Hayton's carefully groomed network of flying monkeys produces an advert for his book?

Thank you: Debbie Hayton in the Mail www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4994327-thank-you-debbie-hayton-in-the-mail

I think it's an interesting interview, I don't really care who's standing up to ask questions as long as someone is. The hand-waving (joking about not doing chores) stands out I think, and the focus on AGP and being driven by the erotic leaves an impression.

Thought the last bit was funny as I initially read it with a different emphasis!

"For Hayton, the likely fury that will greet her book is worthwhile if it helps other people like her."

I think the actual "debate" isn't as polarised as people make out and highlighting the contradictions and grey areas of "the middle" wherever that might be can only prompt people to think about their own position and whether it is makes sense.

Ah @Froodwithatowel I really hear you there, I think you've nailed it with the word "props", especially given the photo.

@Pigeon851 yes I agree with this being sunlight. There is something of a golden bridge (if that's the right term) aspect to it for me too. Not quite there but closer.