Thank you: Debbie Hayton in the Mail

[Needmoresleep]

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-13011839/I-went-agonising-operation-thought-woman-finally-make-happy-devastating-revelation.html

Thanks for the link. For the first time ever, I've clicked on a mail link that turns out to be paywalled. I thought their business model was all about the free clicks!

Yeah, sorry I can't read it due to the paywall. What's the jist?

It’s on https://archive.ph/1LF1C too.

Sorry. I did not pay. It looks as if Debbie Hayton has a book out explaining how their thinking has evolved. Some people here will disagree with parts of it, but it seems to be a real attempt at honesty. And interesting as Debbie obviously has a different perspective.

The upshot is that Hayton recognises that he’s still a man, despite the genital surgery (which he describes in some detail) but still wants to be perceived as a woman because of his autogynephilia, which he explains about.

He mentions women’s sex based rights and how transactivism harms him because it affects women’s attitude to transsexuals, but doesn’t say whether he avoids using women’s toilets etc.

In fairness this a Mail edit of highlights from a book. The surgery bits should get Mail readers choking over their cornflakes.

Debbie acknowledges the harm to his children, but does not really cover what he caused his wife to go through. I hope he is honest and observant about the implications for his family in the book.

Even so I think a different transsexual voice is useful to counter the standard Stonewall/ally TWAW.

It's a really interesting and informative article. It highlights, among other things, just how very, very sad it is that activism has undermined the wonderful informal compromise that allowed most of us to just rub along with treating trans people as if they were their preferred sex.
Debbie's experiences on first socially transitioning, the shrugging acceptance at work that Debbie described. That was how things could be, for a long time before the current wave of activism. Most people truly wanted to have a way of gladly supporting a trans person and making their life as un-dissonant as possible.
Then all of a sudden we were told, required to believe, that we must literally regard people as being their preferred sex, just on the basis of a declaration of their preference. And we realised that the wonderful compromise was being levered to get us to believe that any departure from that orthodoxy amounted backsliding into bigotry and the erosion of rights. As if our politeness and kindness for years had been an acknowledgement that TWAW. What a sleight of hand, and at what cost to gender dysphoric men, in addition to the costs to women.

Article is at archive.ph if anyone wants to read it.

It's a good piece. It doesn't go into the effects on DH's wife and whether or not DH still uses women's spaces, but I think it's an extract from a book, so you'd hope dealt with there.

I don't think we should be thanking him. It's good that he acknowledges that his desire to transition was fueled by watching sissy porn but I think he's still being dishonest about how much he still enjoys his autogynephilia.

I do understand that he wants to hang on to his teaching job, so he can't really dwell too deeply on the porn aspect, but this is hardly an 'honest' account.

I feel so sad for his wife.

Quote from the article where Debbie himself admits to autogynephilia in case any moderators think I'm being mean:

"I have also discovered something deep-seated about myself — that what prompted me to transition was not, in fact, the desire to be a woman but that I was sexually aroused by the thought of myself as a woman.
This is an unusual and little understood sexual condition known as autogynephilia.
I was a heterosexual male and, therefore, evolved to tune in to signals given off by females. But somewhere wires were crossed, my sex drive was short-circuited and in effect I was sex-signalling to myself. That was what was compelling me to turn my body into a woman.
All of which leaves a tantalising question in my mind. If I had known in 2012 what I know now, would I have transitioned? The answer is no."

As with other books we only get part of the story in the press to sell the book and the paper.

I am glad that Debbie has used autogynaephillia (mods it’s in the article) to describe themselves. Its honest.

Reading it I did wonder if IW is so angry because they actually deep down know that the surgery wasn’t the answe?

Both Hayton and Jenner have received abuse but have not stopped speak what they see as their truth.

I am happy to thank the sheros: Jo, Maya, Allison etc, but equally acknowledge that it is good that transsexuals express views which don’t reflect the Stonewall orthodoxy.

There are others, Rose of Dawn, Fi Ollander, Miranda Yardley who have also been prepared to stand in the line of fire, and who appear less self-centric. Hayton writes well and the article is useful.

A bit from the middle

I really distrust him. I don't like that he's the 'reasonable side of trans', making a fortune out of speaking about this. His poor wife and children.

despite the fact that he is being honest on where he on the issue, and he could have a simpler life if he didn't say anything he's still a man pretending, especially to the casual observer who doesn't know his personal history, that he is a woman. If he truly wanted to put someone other than himself first and do the right thing he would go back to Mr Hayton and not use the women's toilets (I don't believe he's stopped doing that has he?).

He told the children he taught to call him Miss, and used female facilities. He's a self-confessed AGP. He gets aroused by wearing women's clothes and being referred to as female.

He was also under the impression that the size of a woman's breasts denote her social standing amongst her peers. And that bigger breasted women are higher up the social hierarchy.

I believe him to be highly manipulative and very clever. He has set out to make himself the reasonable voice of transgenderism. Tricky when you've got a sissy fetish.

I cannot imagine trusting the opinion of somebody less, to be honest.

If he doesn't believe he's a woman, what does he mean when he talks about transition and detransition?

Quite. I'm assuming he means not wearing women's clothes in public. He says he presents as a woman because it's a fetish.

So what does that mean? Not conducting your fetish where people could see?

Ffs

what age group does Hayton teach? I'm a little 🤮 that a teacher is publicly discussing their fetish and love of porn in the national press. Would be a sackable
offence for most teachers, no?

On my journey to understanding the issues before, i determined that GC beliefs were the correct position, for me, i had an e mail exchange with Debbie, who struck me as kind, and self aware.

I don’t think Debbie uses female only facilities think we covered that in the e mails exchanges.

Interestingly i find myself wanting to call Debbie, she, without the usual difficulties, and i think they have a level of openness and honesty that is very useful to our position because she agrees with us.

We need to take on side people who do agree with us, so we can in the future live alongside transsexuals who have respect for women’s rights.

I am going to read the book.

I wonder if Hayton has yet tried to withdraw the damaging advice he gave the NASUWT. He's been asked about it repeatedly on here and ignores the question. He's more than happy to discuss the fetish aspect though.

Debbie is responsible for the guidance from teachers unions about how to treat transgender teachers. (that they should use the ladies, etc). As far as I know, he has never rescinded that guidance.

Guidance from a man who is aroused by it!

And as far as I know he was using female facilities all the way through, and was asked countless times, on here, and Twitter if he was going to stop. He never addressed it.

Maybe he has now? But that would be a very recent acknowledgment of women's boundaries.

I'm sure Debbie can be very nice.

I think Debbie has had a journey towards the light so i think the book might be worth a read.

DH wrote the NasUwt school trans guidance which advocates boys using girls' toilets and changing room. DH has repeatedly refused to engage in discussion on this here and elsewhere. DH writes articles which suggest he understands the problems with this but has never shown any inclination to revise the guidance. DH is not to be trusted.

“I feel so sad for his wife.”

This.

And Hayton seems to be oblivious to how that article reveals a fundamentally misogynistic attitude. Clothing + name does not = woman.