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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Ruth Hunt is leaving Stonewall

411 replies

Whatisthisfuckery · 21/02/2019 16:21

Just seen this on Twitter.

twitter.com/ruth_hunt/status/1098604129394585601?s=21

I’d like to think her successor will be less homophobic. We shall see, although I’m not holding out much hope.

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R0wantrees · 24/02/2019 14:46

And also what's the board's role and position in all this?

Significant, no doubt!

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3488261-The-Financial-Juggernaut-that-is-Stonewall

See also the role of the Stonewall Trans Advisory group discussed by Miranda Yardley:
'Ma Vie En Rose: Ruth Hunt’s Rose-Tinted Trans*Goggles and the anti-Woman Politics of Stonewall'
POSTED ON 16TH NOVEMBER 2017
mirandayardley.com/en/ma-vie-en-rose-ruth-hunts-rose-tinted-transgoggles-and-the-anti-woman-politics-of-stonewall/

R0wantrees · 24/02/2019 14:43

cf Sheila Jeffries talk at the first 'We Need To Talk' meeting which took place after Maria Machlaclan was assaulted at Speakers' Corner.

Sheila Jeffries described transgenderism as a 'mens sexual rights movement' and identifies it presence being evident since the 1970's:

'What Is Gender?'

see thread collating historic trans rights lobbying:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3463920-Lets-go-back-to-2007

AngryAttackKittens comment about the thread:
I'm going to point every "but the nice, harmless old school transsexuals whose movement has been unfairly appropriated by the nasty transgender people" person to this thread from now on.

All the same elements we're seeing now were there in that old BBC roundtable from the 70s with the 4 transwomen, the politician, and the doctor. None of this is new.
(link to the program)
www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p06c83f4/player

R0wantrees · 24/02/2019 14:34

But if she wasn't the ideologue-in-chief at Stonewall, who was?

Pressure had been exerted on Stonewall prior to Ruth Hun't appointment.
Its interesting to note Edward Lord's comment on her appointment. Lord had been involved previously in lobbying for Bisexual rights, though much of his & his partner Dr Meg-John Barker's focus seems to be on securing non-binary/trans/queer/kink rights:

January 2014 article:
'Stonewall: a new dawn for the UK’s top LGBT equality campaign
Anyone who has read my blog on LGB&T issues may have noticed a scepticism in my tone about the work of Stonewall, the biggest and most influential equal rights campaign in the United Kingdom, this despite being listed by them amongst 17 LGB ‘Role Models’ in their publication of that name back in 2012.

In recent years, Stonewall, and more particularly its egregious Chief Executive, Ben Summerskill, has put itself on the wrong side of debates – arguing for example in 2010 that there was no need to campaign for equal marriage as civil partnerships were quite sufficient. Furthermore, Summerskill steadfastly refused to allow Stonewall in England to support trans* people in their battle for equality; and, most recently, he has consistently used the term ‘gay’ to cover all queer folk, which risks excluding those who identify as lesbian, bisexual, or in some other way that best suits them.

Then, last Thursday came the news that many LGB&T activists across the UK have long been waiting for. Ben has gone.

In his place as Acting Chief Executive is Ruth Hunt: Ben’s Deputy since last last April and a leading campaigner with the charity since 2005. In my experience of Ruth she is not only a highly effective lobbyist but also far more considered in approach and willing to listen to all sections of our communities.

Ruth has already made clear that she wishes to adopt a far more open and inclusive approach to Stonewall’s work. In her first tweet as Acting CEO she loyally said that she was proud to carry on Ben’s legacy but recognised that there is lots to do in Britain and around the world to end homophobia and biphobia.

The very mention of biphobia, recognising that bisexual people do face distinct discrimination both within LGB&T communities and beyond, is already a major step forward for Stonewall becoming genuinely inclusive in its campaigns." (continues)
edwardlord.org/2014/01/28/stonewall-a-new-dawn-for-the-uks-top-lgbt-equality-campaign/

threads:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3459026-Edward-Lord-asking-the-Sunday-Times-to-censor-Andrew-Gilligan

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3352843-First-there-was-Jess-Bradley-then-the-Challenors-now-Edward-Lord

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3380245-The-City-of-London-consultation-didn-t-go-quite-as-they-hoped

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3317922-City-of-London-Corporation-consultation-is-out-this-covers-Hampstead-Ponds

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3323475-Surprise-The-Masons-now-welcome-Transwomen-but-not-women

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3398737-We-re-Still-Here-Conference-8th-September-A-report-from-the-inside

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3354366-The-Times-reports-on-BACPs-regressive-sexist-guidelines-for-therapists

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3339137-BACP-Gender-Sexual-and-Relationship-Diversity-by-Dr-Meg-John-Barker

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3396169-John-Bercow-sex-pest-ridicules-GC-Women-friend-of-Pink-News-Edward-Lord-who-refused-UQ-about-prison-policy-following-Karen-White-Case-Unconnected

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3316098-Childrens-Convenor-Elected-Councillor-calls-women-cunts-on-Twitter-rants

Lamaha · 24/02/2019 14:02

The reason I found Mumsnet was that I was a member of another forum; had been for many years. I made the mistake of commenting on a poster who seemed to think that genderneutral toilets were so normal anyone who was against them was an idiot -- his word. So I made some arguments for same sex toilets; the first critical comment. People came after me with pitchforks! Especially one woman, a known lesbian, who said I should "educate myself" and called me transphobic and a terf. ONE single person came out in support, and sent me a PM saying I should check out Mumsnet. Then I came here.

I made one last comment asking for people's opinion as to whether lesbians should sleep with penis-having transwomen, but I never returned to see how the discussion continued.

I have left that forum completely. I hope they have all educated themselves now, in the wake of the Marina N. story and all the GC articles not turning up.

FlyingOink · 24/02/2019 13:53

I wonder if Hunt will ever realise what she's done. I might be being over-generous. She might already know and not care.

LordProfFekkoThePenguinPhD · 24/02/2019 12:55

I was clearing DS’ midden out and found an article that they had been given for an English assignment ages ago.

It was from the Gruniard all about the stonewall riots (it was all about gay men apparently) and how the nasty straight people wanted to castrate all the queers. The words Lesbian or woman wasn't used in the whole adolescent-style whine. It really was all about the boys.

I’ve made some crib notes and pointers on it for him.

LordProfFekkoThePenguinPhD · 24/02/2019 12:52

Needless to say she wasn’t impressed.

EmpressAdultHumanFemale · 24/02/2019 11:37

And what did she think, Fekko?

NothingOnTellyAgain · 24/02/2019 11:37

""Many other longstanding supporters of Stonewall, including transsexuals, share our concerns and dismay that the very organisation we helped to fund and turn into the ‘go to’ LGBT [lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender] authority, advising political parties and corporates, is now telling schoolchildren that a bearded man with a penis can be a lesbian and any girls and boys deviating from 1950s gender norms are in the wrong body.”"

Note that this is a quote of a funder who has left.
Sounds like an important one though.

LordProfFekkoThePenguinPhD · 24/02/2019 11:33

I made the mistake of mentioning the whole ‘lesbians who won’t sleep with a man who says he is a woman is a transphobe’ to my sister. She had heard of it...

EmpressAdultHumanFemale · 24/02/2019 11:30

Now I am ready to vomit every time I see a stupid bloody uniform rainbow

Yep. This lesbian wouldn’t touch the rainbow with a bargepole nowadays. It feels like a threat.

LordProfFekkoThePenguinPhD · 24/02/2019 11:18

Growing up with a gay sister I fought the corner fiercely growing up.

Now I am ready to vomit every time I see a stupid bloody uniform rainbow or a prepubescent child (or their idiot mothers - as it seems to be mostly the idiot mothers) witter on about them being trans or bi or gender-sodding-neutral.

RedToothBrush · 24/02/2019 11:18

Stonewall should set aside money from their huge budgets for when they get their arses sued off.

ChattyLion · 24/02/2019 11:10

Stonewall should set aside money from their huge budgets for the current and future needs of detranisiitoned people. Also they should encourage this in the many other countries they are now working in.
Also they should fund independent research into detransitioned people’s needs now. Then they should publicise the findings widely, including in those other countries they are working in, and start funding specialised service provision and support accordingly.

None of this is antithetical to Stonewall’s clearly heartfelt support of trans people and endlessly restated commitment to their needs- in fact it should be seen as absolutely part of their support of trans people.

The detransitioned group in the UK can only grow (as more people, mostly women are transitioning) and I have seen stats on FWR threads that more people will not persist with their new gender identity, than will continue with it after puberty. (Sorry, I don’t have the ref for that). But regardless of the exact proportions clearly there will be a growing number of people in this category.

Hence the responsible healthcare approach is to provide non-politicised clinically-specialised mental health support for gender dysphoria (do Stonewall campaign for this care or support it- if so, I’ve not really noticed that?) but always to take a very cautious ‘watch and wait’ approach to moving further to any permanent physical interventions like puberty blockers, hormones, surgery. Especially for under 18s.

Everyone (policy makers and particularly influential advocacy organisations like Stonewall) should be concerned about where this growing group of detranisitioned people will get their needs met from, especially as the deliberately polarised, highly-politicised ‘ideologically pure’ current approach to promoting trans identity only in a positive, ‘affirming’ way, suspending the normal rules of safeguarding, medical ethics, evidence based medicine, essentially advocating politically as a matter of belief ‘#nodebate’ with anyone with a different perspective.

This means that alternative views including those of detransitioned people themselves may be suppressed and unheard, advocacy for their care needs is not done, and those who do detransition are either rejected by or feel very isolated from the trans community and the advocacy groups around it, because their experience is apparently so politically taboo to voice, making them especially unsupported and vulnerable.

So where will their needs be met from?

While gender critical women have always said that transmen are welcome at any stage in their journey to talk and have as much right to women’s spaces etc as any other woman, and have never actually ‘left’ the community of women... this cannot be a problem for gender critical people to solve.

Regarding actually supporting the specific mental health and health needs of detransitioned people, or providing organised peer-to-peer access within the community of detransitioned people, this is a specific area of expertise.

Clearly gender critical women advocating for women’s rights within this clash of rights, have no budgets. As political advocates gender critical women do not run peer support organisations for this group and aren’t acting as service providers to communities or mental or medical health experts by virtue of setting out gender critical thinking.

This expertise and money for solutions has to come from the trans lobby itself. The detransitioned community’s urgent and complex set of mental and physical health needs, which can in some cases be inherently arising as a result of the advocacy of the trans lobby, needs to be talked about openly by everyone and supported by specialists.

Where is the welcoming support and specialised services for female and male detransitioned people? Note- this will likely require some separated single-sex services for natal men and women because they will have very different needs.

This is because male and female biology are different and society’s gendered expectations will impact them differently as detranisitoned people who are seeking to build a life in their original birth sex, but still possibly dealing with permanent issues arising from the transitioned period, which affect their everyday. Plus the possibility of still dealing with gender dysphoria that is still being experienced but without the belief being held out any more that transition is a good solution in their own individual case. A very tough position to be in, clearly.

Responsible advocates should seek more research on this, plan services for this need and fund these.

Seeing stonewall’s huge bank balance on this thread, it feels to me that this should be a key part of the pitch of an incoming CEO for a future work plan for the charity.

And regardless of whether the next CEO candidates suggest it or not, it should absolutely be the new direction of travel insisted on very publicly by the Trustees of Stonewall.

EweSurname · 24/02/2019 09:31

How weird - I get two very different views of the thread too, depending on whether I’m logged in or not. And people that I follow are more prominent when I’m not logged in, which seems completely backwards

hackmum · 24/02/2019 09:26

Fascinating to read the Pink News comments. Very heartening to see how pissed off lesbians and (one presumes) gay men are about Stonewall’s direction under Hunt.

EmpressAdultHumanFemale · 24/02/2019 09:20

Ruth Hunt is a traitor. She sold her soul & her integrity and I’d say she’s done lesbians more harm than Margaret Thatcher ever did. At least everyone knew Thatcher was the enemy. Hunt attacked us from within.

nettie434 · 24/02/2019 09:16

Julie has tweeted this and a couple of other tweeters say similar:
twitter.com/bindelj/status/1047931885379354625?s=21

Put it this way, she was talking about letting 'them' form a separate group from Stonewall with some funding and guidance. She made it clear (or lied, rather) that there was to be no T in Stonewall.....

SonicVersusGynaephobia · 24/02/2019 08:58

FloraFox that was my first thought upon hearing the news about Hunt's resignation, would Julie now say what it was?

Julie did say something once about her having a lunch with Ruth Hunt where Ruth told her she was very aware of the "Trans Issue" and what affect that would have on lesbians and she wasn't going to let that happen. I don't know if that's what Julie Bindel is referring to, or if there is more.

nettie434 · 24/02/2019 08:56

Was reading the Martina thread that included a link to Janice Turner’s article yesterday (thanks igneococcus). There’s a sentence at the end abou Hunt resigning ‘in near despair’. I’d love to know more about that. Must look at the Stonewall annual accounts. Suspect that like many big charities it has grown more reliant on grants and corporate sponsorship than individual donations. If the Trustees think they can carry on training the police, writing toolkits etc, the next CEO will do more of the same. If that looks as if it is not viable, then it will change. Definitely agree with posters suggesting ‘follow the money’.

TinselAngel · 24/02/2019 08:52

I just tried that Pumpkin, and it's exactly the same for me. Weird.

tirisfalpumpkin · 24/02/2019 08:23

Don’t know if this is a Twitter quirk or something more sinister. I usually browse logged out (as I’m TERFblocked). When looking at the thread logged out, I see lots of sensible clear-eyed and rather angry comments from lesbians, gay men and feminists about RH’s legacy.

When I log in, suddenly it’s pages of love and best wishes from her friends.

Is the algorithm identifying GC accounts and making sure they don’t see content they might agree with, perhaps so they feel more isolated?

I would like Stonewall to have the integrity to say that they are a T charity and not a LBG one any more. I am fed up of them sticking ‘and bisexuals’ onto everything when they haven’t done anything for us in years.

LordProfFekkoThePenguinPhD · 24/02/2019 08:15

Stonewall became trans-inclusive in 2015, after a six-month consultation with more than 700 trans people.

Charity “hey folks - how’s about our mega dosh charity shoves the lesbians aside and centres ourselves on you guys - and pushes it anyone who doesn’t think you are just super?”
The 700 “let us think about that...”

TimeLady · 24/02/2019 07:35

Just adding this for the record. We don't want the rest of the management/board of trustees at Stonewall to have their part in this overlooked, do we?

www.stonewall.org.uk/about-us/who-we-are-1

Management:

Ruth Hunt
Helen Moulinos

Trustees:

Jan Gooding
Andrew Pakes
Meri Williams
Michele Oliver
Mohsin Zaidi
Ros Parker
Catherine Dixon
Simon Blake OBE
Sheldon Mills
Tim Toulmin

Ruth Hunt is leaving Stonewall
Ruth Hunt is leaving Stonewall
Ruth Hunt is leaving Stonewall
NopeNi · 24/02/2019 06:54

I can't see any comments, have they been turned off?

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