Mumsnet FWR Guide to De-Programming Yourself From Self-Harming Kindness

Women are expected to be everything for everyone, from family and friends to random strangers. (not envy)

I've come to terms with my Inner Beryl, precisely because she is my Inner Beryl, and has been there for so long that she's ingrained.

I have had serious talks with her about the difference between Berylness and being a doormat and that has improved things, but there have been occasions where Beryl and I have had a little debate about stepping in to make someone feel better, or just walking away, and we agreed that we'd feel so bad about leaving someone in an unhappy situation that we both said 'Fuck it, we're going to be nice and if anyone doesn't like that, well they can just fuck off!'

So my inner Beryl knows who she is and what she can and can't compromise on, and isn't afraid to let me know in no uncertain terms; and I mostly agree with her

I have also been reading this having followed the link. As a newish member of MN and FWR boards I find the older threads really useful and informative as well as the current ones. 😀

I’ve just been directed to this fascinating 2018 thread from an equally interesting one in 2024: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5228413-the-womens-march-thats-all-about-the-men

Mumsnet FWR — always something more interesting to read than whatever else I’m doing!

Have read the whole thread and really enjoyed (apart from derailing nonsense along the way)

I can be v Beryl but rather randomly - will take more note and think more about why and what sets me off.

Witnessed argument today between martyred Beryl and Stanley in work situation. She'd "volunteered" to "be nice", bitterly resented it and was weeping and furious that "people weren't more grateful".

Thanks All

The condition of empathy comes into Beryl's make up a lot I think.
If you empathise with your MIL's disappointment when DH doesn't get her a card again it is tempting to step in.

My DH lacks empathy. I would say he inherited this from his DM, an avid housekeeper and cook, but she enjoyed having a lovely home and making nice meals, she didn't work much outside the home so this was her 'job'. So was she being kind or perhaps she was doing what she wanted to do. I don't think you'd describe her as having been a kind person. DGCs weren't allowed to play in the immaculate garden or had any plaything provided for them in her house ever.
My point is that doing wifework in the home doesn't make you a beryl, her DH had passed away.

I learned that he didn't help much because he didn't want to. Simple as. That's what it comes down to when they have to face up it.

This Is Why I'll Never Be An Adult:

hyperboleandahalf.blogspot.com/2010/06/this-is-why-ill-never-be-adult.html

Posting it for the illustrations and the point the author makes about herself.

For a little while, I actually feel grown-up and responsible. I strut around with my head held high, looking the other responsible people in the eye with that knowing glance that says "I understand. I'm responsible now too. Just look at my groceries."

At some point, I start feeling self-congratulatory.
...
I begin to feel like I've accomplished my goals. It's like I think that adulthood is something that can be earned like a trophy in one monumental burst of effort and then admired and coveted for the rest of one's life.

I had counselling over this issue with DH, where I learned that he didn't help much because he didn't want to. Simple as. That's what it comes down to when they have to face up it.

That was revelatory. I now say no to requests I don't want to carry out. I also have stopped waiting for his "permission " to change things. I never knew I did this, but I did, and it kept me stuck in his status quo for years.

I think people don't appreciate how much their 'self-reliance' and 'self-worth' are enabled by the benefit of someone else's Beryl.

If all women took that stance the human race would die out. Some women need do the labour of motherhood otherwise that stance wouldn't be available for others- ie- women who choose it benefit from other women's Beryl.

I'm not saying you or anyone should have kids if you don't want to, but you and everyone else alive owes their existence to the birthing class of women. You benefit from othes' Beryl whether you like it or not.

I disagree. I don't think Beryl is a necessity for a society - or for humankind - to exist. In fact, I think it's an actively harmful force.

Yes, certain sacrifices are required to have children, and to exist in a peaceful society. And loving someone means placing them before you (to a certain extent).

But Beryl is essentially a sacrificial martyr. And you CAN be a mother without being a martyr. You CAN be a good lover and partner without becoming a doormat. You CAN love people and expect to be loved back, through actions, not just in words.

Actually, I strongly believe that if you love someone and just give and give and give and the beloved takes and takes and takes, that's not real love. Real love is love between equals.

Place marking.

I've been seriously trying to put beryl in the corner today.

Dh is TERRIBLE at walking away from a mess or half doing something. And yet will totally do it in front of parents or my parents or friends.

So Ive been purposefully avoiding clearing up messes he's made with ds2 (weaning) - so the porridge turned to concrete and he had to spend ages chipping at it before baby could have lunch. And a few other tiny things here and there. I have no qualms with team work etc except that dh will drop the small ball he carries regularly and is incredibly inconsistent which of course impacts me as I have to fill the gaps. Nope, no more, as long as the kids aren't affected.

Of course there's times I don't manage to clear up immediately and I'd happily do it if he's done a meal except I know dh too well now. I'm just allowing a few natural consequences.

I'm saying no a lot more too. He has his great points too; to his credit is remembering to do ds's reading far more than me, and I'm a teacher... though I usually have to fill the book in

I had a meeting last week and all I could think about was Beryl.

Done really well, I was told HAVE to do something I questioned ‘have’ which they then backtracked to, ‘could’ I do it but no consequences if I don’t. Was few other things in that meeting that they back tracked on they got bit flustered.

Left that meeting and kicked myself because I apologised for questioning and didn’t mean to come across as being awkward, even though, as always am polite throughout.

Ffs I nearly done it!

I’m adopting Beryl as meaning for nice until further notice.

I can feel a part of me shrink/recoil when I am to-the-point and unapologetic. And I do it anyway. I think we have to go through the initial inner discomfort of dispensing with "nice"; it's a rite of passage. It gets better each time, until being straightforward becomes second nature.

I've been wondering how much Beryl and her sisters are tangled up with the phenomenon of preference falsification.

According to the theory, when articulating preferences, individuals frequently tailor their choices to what appears socially acceptable. In other words, they convey preferences that differ from what they genuinely want. Kuran calls the resulting misrepresentation "preference falsification". In his 1995 book, Private Truths, Public Lies, he argues that the phenomenon is ubiquitous and that it has huge social and political consequences. These consequences all hinge on interdependencies between individual decisions as to what preference to convey publicly. A person who hides his discontent about a fashion, policy, or political regime makes it harder for others to express discontent.

One socially significant consequence of preference falsification is widespread public support for social options that would be rejected decisively in a vote taken by secret ballot. Privately unpopular policies may be retained indefinitely as people reproduce conformist social pressures through individual acts of preference falsification.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Preference_falsification

Private Truths, Public Lies: The Social Consequences of Preference Falsification
www.hup.harvard.edu/catalog.php?isbn=9780674707580

I’m inclined to agree Weezol. Totally Berylled. Berylled into doing the right thing through guilt.

Which is why I’m going to roll with it this time -as I should have spoken up earlier - but I have learned a good lesson.

The chair has taken it upon herself to bbuy something - her choice. You're being Beryled by proxy.

As before, I wouldn't be chipping in. There has to be a cut off point or you'll never say no to anything.

On the other, I feel the chair shouldn't be pushing you all into this when the paucity of the collection should have been a substantial clue stick that something is amiss.

Definitely this!

I suppose I feel I should have made my decision sooner and communicated it clearly though, which is a good lesson. If a similar situation were to happen again, I would speak up to avoid any ambiguity.

Timely question Weezol I had decided not to contribute, but the group chair has now bought something herself, and sent a message asking if anyone would like to chip in. I’m guessing she wasn’t overwhelmed with willing donors

So now my conscience feels I should give the chair a contribution so that she doesn’t shoulder all of the cost, whilst my consciousnes is up in arms because I don’t think I shouldn’t be guilted in to giving money.

I will chip in on this occasion. My lesson to myself for the future is to be clearer in communicating my intentions. Then I needn’t be bounced into doing something that’s not my choice.

Ali1cedowntherabbithole What conclusion did you come to about the collection?

Virginia Woolf had something to say on Beryl, with 'killing the Angel in the House'.

For me, I have mostly subdued Beryl. The one place I cannot manage to stand up for myself is when other people treat me as a counsellor. They think I am a good person to dump their emotional woes on - especially my male peers at the office where I'm in a male-domainted field. I cannot seem to stop them even though I'm objectively bad at dealing with emotions (mine and other people's).