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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Letter in The Guardian from Transexuals saying self ID not the answer

512 replies

invisibleoldwoman · 04/05/2018 18:20

www.theguardian.com/society/2018/may/04/standing-up-for-transsexual-rights?CMP=share_btn_fb

OP posts:
2rebecca · 04/05/2018 19:38

I think if I had disliked my body enough to take hormones and have surgery and try really hard to fit in with the other gender I'd be pissed off and angry at people who say you can be the other gender just by saying you are with no changes required whatsoever, especially those you suspect just find it all a bit kinky and seem to dislike the gender they claim to want to be.

spontaneousgiventime · 04/05/2018 19:37

That was quick The hate has started

borntobequiet · 04/05/2018 19:35

Well done to all the signatories. Much respect.

OrchidInTheSun · 04/05/2018 19:35

Thanks to all of you for standing up to be counted. I honestly believe the fight is intensifying because the TRAs are getting scared and angry. We need your support to win this war - @debbieinbirmingham and @Jayceedove and @mirandayardley.

So thank you. Have a 🥂from me

Greymisty · 04/05/2018 19:35

Well done to everyone who signed Flowers absolute stars.

R0wantrees · 04/05/2018 19:32

A reminder of the article by Jenni Murray's public for which she was rebuked by the BBC:

Miranda's concerns are recorded by Jenni,

"Miranda told me she would like to be empathetic and compassionate to the boy who “identifies” as a girl and wants to join the Guides, but personally thinks that for it to be regarded as progress is regressive. A female space should not be open to males. She asks: “Can someone who has lived as a boy, and then a man, with all the privilege that entails, really lay claim to womanhood and demand unrestricted access to women’s spaces like changing rooms and refuges — spaces that exist for the dignity, comfort and protection of women?”
Now that’s a “woman” after my own heart."

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/be-trans-be-proud-but-dont-call-yourself-a-real-woman-frtld7q5c

the backlash is described here, featuring Debbie's support:
www.theguardian.com/society/2017/mar/05/jenni-murray-transgender-not-real-women-sunday-times-magazine

AssignedPuuurfectAtBirth · 04/05/2018 19:32

Flowers to all of you. And thanks

And some Gin. Well it's Friday!

terryleather · 04/05/2018 19:32

Yes making a point of mentioning the sexual fetish aspect is really really important and brave too.

concretesieve · 04/05/2018 19:31

Thank you Flowers

BlytheByName · 04/05/2018 19:27

Brave. Thank you for speaking out.

ReluctantCamper · 04/05/2018 19:25

that's what I thought Popchyk. Any implication that the motivation for some transgender individuals is a sexual fetish can be enough to get your post deleted here , but it is true, and brave of them to acknowledge it.

ErrolTheDragon · 04/05/2018 19:25

More thanks. Cake

(OT and I don't want to derail, but that stonewall 'umbrella' ... aren't a lot of us either 'genderqueer' or 'neutrois' if the definitions I find online are correct....)

Popchyk · 04/05/2018 19:21

"This is problematic when such male-bodied people, including sexual fetishists, demand the rights afforded to women as a protected sex, including access to their private spaces."

That reference to sexual fetishists is really important.

Gets it right out in the open.

Well done to everyone involved.

aaarrrggghhhh · 04/05/2018 19:21
Star
Wanderabout · 04/05/2018 19:18

Also Flowers Jaycee. Or Gin. Whatever your preference.

Theinconstantgardener · 04/05/2018 19:18

Thanks to all who signedFlowers

WichBitchHarpyTerfThatsMe · 04/05/2018 19:16

Wow! Thank you to all who signed this. I too am surprised that The Guardian published it, maybe, just maybe, the eyes and ears are opening about the so called ‘right side of history’.

We can but hope but we needed this right now. It really messes up the them and us polarised positions the transcultists wanted everyone to believe in.

AbsintheFriends · 04/05/2018 19:15

A grateful acknowledgement from me of the courage that has taken.

This is the way forward, and the attitude that will bring women to stand alongside transwomen and assist in their fight against the common enemy of toxic masculinity.

Juells · 04/05/2018 19:15

Great letter. Very brave to expose themselves to the abuse that they know they'll receive.

ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 04/05/2018 19:15

hobobo

This is Stonewalls definition of trans, as.you can see it encompasses pretty much everybody.

^An umbrella term to describe people whose gender is not the same as, or does not sit comfortably with, the sex they were assigned at birth.
Trans people may describe themselves using one or more of a wide variety of terms, including (but not limited to) transgender, transsexual, gender-queer (GQ), gender-fluid, non-binary, gender-variant, crossdresser, denderless, agender, nongender, third gender, two-spirit, bi-gender, trans man, trans woman,trans masculine, trans feminine and neutrois.^

www.stonewall.org.uk/help-advice/glossary-terms#t

Wanderabout · 04/05/2018 19:13

OJ won't care btw, I have had this conversation with him and it makes no difference. He's not interested in the real, difficult struggles of transsexuals or women's rights.

He makes that very clear. He is a hack. When this all implodes he'll find something new to rant mindless aggressive tantrummy mantras about.

Jayceedove · 04/05/2018 19:13

Thank you, but not necessary.

I am only saying what I believe and what was important to say.

Sending the letter was Debbie's idea. And I had no hesitation to agree when she asked me because it is the truth.

I put my username because all discussion of trans matters on the net is done using that same one. So anyone disagreeing with me (and I expect that will be one or two) know who I am and can ask me to justify it to their face that way.

I know a few of you genuinely felt that I was playing both sides against the middle on here by also posting on Angels.

I can appreciate why. But I truly wasn't.

That forum has a role to play and is more moderate than many others. But it became increasingly clear from my time on here that you could not be in the middle of this important discussion. There are too many irreconcilable factors.

I decided on the facts and the best way to protect women, who must retain the right to safe spaces, including from those with GRCs where appropriate.

And to protect transgender people who in my view need to be cautious and guided by psychiatric counselling and medical advice rather than simply step into the unknown of transitioning because you feel it is the right thing to do.

Assessment helps guard against someone from doing this inappropriately or with ill intent. It protects women (and men) from being expected to accommodate transitioners who do not have dysphoria then having legally changed gender.

And it protects trans people from themselves in possibly acting too hastily and not being ready to make this huge step into the unknown.

Changing sex is never possible biologically.

But legally changing your 'sex' should never be treated as lightly as changing your socks. And self ID was in danger of creating just that mind set which cannot benefit anybody. Certainly not women.

habobo · 04/05/2018 19:12

So transexual people are people who have physically transitioned and transgender might include those who haven't I see.

Terfulike · 04/05/2018 19:12

Great letter Flowers