Lindsay Clancy case: was it evil, or severe mental illness?

I think it’s very different from the Letby Case. IMO she was framed there was no evidence it was her, but she was scapegoated I believe. I think it will turn out to be the biggest miscarriage of justice in British history.

In this case, there is no dispute she killed the children but it’s whether or not she knew it was right or wrong at the time. People are entitled to think that there was some planning ie, waiting until her DH was out. When she didn’t succeed in killing herself, then the outlook for her was going to be bleak, so by saying she heard voices at that particular time could have been a get out of jail free card (literally). Anyone could commit a crime and say I heard a voice so they get a more lenient sentence and that’s the issue, it’s the not knowing.

What do you mean by following instructions? He might have understood the concept of reasonable doubt but determined that there wasn't reasonable doubt and that she was guilty.
Can't he decide for himself (I believe it was a man) on how to vote and stick to that?

I expect we'll see some men using paternal postpartum as a defense.

Not been following the whole case it sounds like she was mentally ill - still deserves jail time however. She cannot ever be free in my opinion.

Yes, this is why it is complicated. It is fine to believe in your conscience and have a minority opinion - no court can find any wrong doing in that. But if the person is just ignoring the instruction that reasonable doubt means they must pass a not guilty verdict, ie. believes there is doubt but wants to find guilty anyway, then that is not following the judges instructions. This is what the note from the jury chairperson indicated, that the holdout person acknowledged doubt but refused to find her whatever the majority view was - that is where the problem sits.

During and just after the LL trial there was very little dispute that LL killed the babies, in fact. I was one of a tiny minority of posters here critical of the medical evidence who felt there was no evidence of murder in any of the cases.

But that’s not the point. I didn’t say the LL case was like the LC, I said that both cases the spotlight the flaws of the adversarial legal system in dealing with scientific evidence and picked out 3 points of confluence between them.

Most lay people don’t understand psychosis so everything they think they think is grounded mostly in fancy.

In that case he would have been following instructions.

Clearly not evil. Clearly loved her children but struggling more than any of us could possibly imagine

He started dating her 4 months after his wife allegedly murdered his children. That's pretty quick

A close relative works in a forensic mental health unit with people who have been found not guilty by reason of insanity. He says that the vast majority of the people there are awful people and mentally ill, that the two aren't exclusive. It's not like they could be 'cured' or whatever way you want to phrase it and then they would go off and be model citizens.

Coming from a home with a very abusive mother I'm always at the way people rush to defend women who commit awful crimes against their children anyway.

But why does that mean that she didn't intend to kill her children in what was a violent horrible death? Three times. And yet the voices in her head have not been back before or since. I think she is lying and it was a very cold, calculating act. Sure shes remorseful now, after the children are dead.

Mental illness clearly

What a bizarre judicial system it is where this decision is left to 12 randoms rather than experts. Would this happen in the U.K.?

Every time I see a photo of the children I get overwhelmed with emotion and horror. They were absolutely beautiful. I’m firmly in the camp of viewing the children as the victims of this crime and I believe LC should be charged despite any kind of mental illness.

Ha ha! See Lucy Letby.

I can’t believe anyone thinks anything other than mental illness. That poor woman.

As her lawyer said in his summing up, referring to photographs of Lindsay before and after, ‘How does this turn into this? How? Because of the damn medicine and the lousy medical care that she got.’

She needs to be acquitted and looked after in a mental health facility. There is no way she should go to prison.

Quite, you were taking about them in the same sentence regarding the emotive topics and the limitations that the public has to understand more complex medical issues. I was pointing out that I think one is innocent because there was no actual evidence. Everyone wanted her hung drawn and quartered due to the emotive nature,

She has been charged. The issue here is that the prosecution decided to go for first degree murder charges. There would have been discussions prior to going to trial, but they decided to go for the maximum charge. The trial may have gone very differently if different charges were proposed.

I meant found guilty and imprisoned.

Those poor children. Fucking hell.

I can't look past the fact that there doesn't seem to be any proof of her psychosis other than the fact that she claims to have been psychotic for the period of time that she killed her children. And the proof of her psychosis is the killing of her kids, so it's a circular argument. What makes you think she was psychotic- well, she killed her kids. Why did she kill her kids- she was psychotic.

Either way, whether psychotic or not, I believe she should pay for the crime.

The voices were there before. In any case voices are only one aspect of psychosis. You can be psychotic with no auditory hallucinations.

After the event she may have got better treatment.

Yes it is tragic. Its equally tragic that a woman who feared she would be a danger to her children was ignored when she asked for help.

I would rather see someone like this in a hospital than a prison.

She reported a number of symptoms of psychosis over a period of time when she was seeking help. It was not just that she said she was psychotic at a specific time.

I never understand these threads. How can anyone answer this question unless you are intimately involved with the person/family? It’s not like an episode of the Traitors where you’re guessing based on vibezzz.