To absolutely hate this government, and what they are doing to our country? PART 2

I posted a link to an article that had a similar story that was being discussed, and my comment "People do see many things in different ways"., and from that one comment, you deduced that I don't " get the full picture "?

I think you have made a few leaps of logic there. I should have expanded sorry. It's an observation on how different media can, and does, shape opinion. And perhaps how it can reinforce existing prejudices.

Do you remember Aylan Kurdi ? The little boy whose death, for a little while, stopped the world. I do. And it stopped me in my tracks. And for lots of people, including me, I am still stopped in my tracks over those photos. And it appears a lot of media sources maybe are too. And lets throw in this thing called compassion, and an ability to see a much bigger picture. A global picture.

Alan Kurdi: Did the photo of a dead child on a beach change anything? | News World | Metro News

Quote " It does beg the question why would a parent risk their children's lives with this dangerous crossing."

I think to answer that, I won't say " because English is the most taught language", but I will try to paint a bigger picture.

Imagine you are in far off land. A family member is maybe being hunted for political, conscription, or religious reasons. Or maybe you are desperate to escape poverty. To want a better life. To get away, get a job to send money home to loved ones. Maybe to try to get settled, and hope loved ones can join you later.

So you call in the local fixer who can arrange things. And he shows you newspaper articles etc to try to sell you a product. And remember, the fixer wants to make as much money as possible.

What newspapers articles will he show ? How about GB news or the like. Farage on the front page, headlines are " UK has open borders", "Migrants get free money, free houses, 4 star hotels, free medical, chain migration".

What product will those grandparents, extended family etc decide to buy ? And who will they send ?

Do you think if Farage and palls really cared about migration, the best thing for them to do is to stand on a world soapbox and yell mistruths and lies so loudly that they can be heard by people in persecuted and impoverished communities worldwide ? Or should he maybe tone it down a little, so he is not helping the traffickers sell their product?

That is the big picture I see. Can you see the same picture as me ?

Well I didn't really want to see that picture so thanks for the trigger warning.

Well I didn't really want to see that picture so thanks for the trigger warning.

Well I didn't really want to see that picture so thanks for the trigger warning.

Why not? It’s a man carrying a child.

I thought you were pro "sinking the boats".

I did consider clipping a picture and posting it with sensitive ticked. But I thought no, this is a newspaper article, and the pictures were on near every front page in the free world.

I paused before clicking post, and I thought, it was on the front page then, and I still cry for that little boy, and really, he should still be on the front page now. To remind people of how he stopped the world, and how too many people now want him forgotten and brushed under the carpet. For whatever reason it is they have.

Do you accept my reasoning? Or have you reported ?

Yes, a dead child.

When you have children shouting "let them drown" at those protests, it is important to remember that it happens.

That image was one of the less harrowing.

You wouldn’t know that if it wasn’t for the context.

@LuckyHazelFoxhasn’t posted about ‘sinking boats’.

They do sink though or rather people die trying. Especially women and children, although a man died this week trying to make it.

It’s not a good system. Plus it is poor at identifying risk.

But I don’t think anyone is denying the tragic failures and horrendous human cost of current migration routes. The Government certainly aren’t.

But that is not an excuse for the demonisation, othering and mob violence we are seeing against not only the people making those journeys - but now, also, the people trying to save their lives.

I also don’t think it’s a reason for military aggression or turning navy ships on migrants, in a way that would only exacerbate the situation.

You wouldn’t know that if it wasn’t for the context.

But I do think it’s important that we see images like this. Because when mobs shout “let them drown” and attack the RLNI for saving lives at sea, that is what they are advocating for.

Taking all politics out of it, I do think it’s important to remember we are talking about real human beings.

@RedTagAlan I actually know the story of the M S St Louis well, for personal reasons, and so find the comparison both very apt and very sobering.

Of course you would, what is wrong with you.

I expect that post mentioning the MS St Louis will be reported. I tried to word it carefully so as not to be accused of antisemitism by doing a direct comparison. I notice that posters who yell "FREE SPEECH" the loudest do appear to be the quickest to hit the report button. Usually those posters appear to be on the "right".

The story of that ship is terrible and horrific. And I totally agree it needs to be remembered. And taught. I am sorry if me posting it brought back any bad memories for you.

I think all this information goes into how we develop our own pictures of the world. And I think everyone should have as big a camera as possible to take that picture. Not be stuck with a 5MP phone camera.

Nothing. It’s a man carrying a child who could be asleep.

I read this logic a lot, but can you not see that you’re conflating two completely different things? Culture and individual personality are not the same.

Culture consists of socially learned norms, attitudes and behaviours. It does not determine someone’s innate personality, their moral character or individual propensity to commit sexual violence. Think about it - two people raised within exactly the same culture can have radically different personalities and behaviours. So even though you can argue that particular attitudes towards women are more prevalent within certain cultures (you will certainly get no arguments from me about that), you can't just transfer those characteristics onto every individual who comes from those cultures. I'm amazed this even needs explaining.

As an example, the US has a much stronger gun culture and a substantially higher homicide rate than the UK. But you wouldn’t be on here arguing that Americans in Britain are more likely to murder someone because 'culture.' You would need evidence showing that Americans living in the U.K. actually are murdering at higher rates before making that claim - as far as I know there is no evidence of this. If this still needs stating, a news article or any number of emotive articles or anecdotes about Americans who actually have murdered people in the U.K. (because of course there will be some) is not what I mean by 'evidence.' Anyone can find articles or anecdotes to back up any agenda.

There is also a fundamental problem in assuming that migrants are representative of the societies they have left. Why would you assume this? If anything, they are likely to be less conforming or they left precisely because they reject aspects of the society they came from. If you were in the Taliban 'establishment' or on the right side of them, why would you flee a society where you have power? I'm sure you realise that the millions live in terror because are deemed not on the right side of the Taliban - it doesn't take much. This is why they put their lives in the hands of these terrible people smugglers. Do you really think the majority people in Iran are fans of the regime there? Really? Just be glad you don't have to make the life choices some people have to make. Would your innate character be different if you happened to have been born in Iran? Or would you be the same person, just in Iran?

This is not to say that all migrants will be delightful members of society. In any group, there will be some bad actors. I am not here to defend rapists ffs - why would I be? I'm not here to defend any men from anywhere, quite the opposite in fact. I'm just here to try to defend against hypocrisy and insidious racist stereotyping where I see it, because it's dangerous and I think we should be better than this. That's it. Otherwise we're not a great nation at all, are we.

Nothing. It’s a man carrying a child who could be asleep.

This is a really thoughtful, interesting point. I also wonder if there’s anything to consider in the fact that - certainly in the case of genuine asylum seekers - migrants might well actually be leaving their home countries because they reject any violence prevalent there..? In which case, aren’t those people choosing to move to the west potentially least likely to hold those harmful cultural attitudes..? In which case, the crime rates in those countries is not necessarily useful. I don’t know - but I certainly don’t think it’s helpful to see all men from any particular place as inherently violent or dangerous. And the problem with any data that does get released is you worry that people will use it to argue whatever they want to.

Our own history shows how laws and norms influence behaviour and how behavioural changes follow contextual change.
I'm gen X, and many of my generation have been subject to what is now considered abuse by adults, smacking by parents, caning and humiliation by teachers. Yet we don't conclude that all boomers/silent gen are innately dangerous to children, despite the fact adults in these generations will be statistically more likely to have struck a child.
With specific regard to male attitudes to women and girls, I have seen in my own lifetime the progression made by ordinary white British men from the routine indulgence in appalling sexism and harassment to moderation in line with legislative and cultural change.
The men who thought it was OK slap my backside as I collected glasses, who ogled 16 year old page 3 girls, who didn't turn a hair when Bill Wyman married a 13 year old aren't all dead yet, but mostly don't do these things now they know they'd not get away with it.

This sort of argument would be addressed by the government releasing the data that demonstrates that your theory is true.

I think it’s important to consider why they are fighting the ICO decision that they should release the data.

If your theory is true it would take away a huge part of the objections from critics of mass migration wouldn’t it.

Also consider the data from countries like Denmark that shows exactly the opposite of your theory - men from a long list of countries where VWAG is very high are committing a high number of crimes per capita.

So many people so desperate to defend the actions of this government- why not just support them publishing the information?

Which countries would you swap that cultural background with?