To absolutely hate this government, and what they are doing to our country? PART 2

I'm fairly firmly right wing economically, as in I will vote pro-business most of the time, with a long list of scrutiny and provisos.

But please do not ever extrapolate that position to suggest that I consider the colour of a person's skin a sufficient basis for a character judgment. I would take serious offense if you/anyone did that.

It's a lazy blanket accusation to keep you quiet. More fools the people who let themselves be bullied.

I'm sure if you don't go round trying to convince people that non British males have a higher likihood of being rapists and murderers; assume that anyone who isnt white is an immigrant until proved otherwise; lclaim to want to protect women and children, while calling for the deportation of non British women and children to countries where they face rape, torture and murder; or defend thugs like Tommy Robinson and this new bargain basement boat slasher wannabe, no one will.
I know a lot of people who are economically right leaning, including good friends and family members. Not one of them do any of those things. I don't think they're racist.

My last comment was for @LuckyHazelFox personally. My contribution to this thread has been a placemark and a casual comment about my Huguenot origins. I have watched it lurch into some incredibly unpleasant vituperative zones that I want to distance myself from as much as possible.

Meanwhile, I still think that Islam remains a pre-historic religion with caveman attitudes to women.

Night night.

Night x

No misunderstanding, @RedTagAlan was very clear. It's easy to see from reading all the comments that the whole thing was being misrepresented by the op claiming that the government was trying to hide figures. The evidence presented certainly clarified this as the explanation and corrections were clear.

Trying to present a specific freedom of information request refusal as government hiding information is farcical.

Thank you for saying that. My views differ from yours politically but I respect common decency when I see it.

Someone obviously didn't like what you said because it looks as though you were reported.

No at all. The ICO rejected Labour’s cost and data sensitivity claims.

Hence Labour having to appeal to try to avoid the release of data. The tribunal will start soon and if Labour lose they’ll have to publish.

Why would she need to be kept quiet?

White men make up most of the country (this is England).

Per capita crime VAWG is lower in the west than the nations these men come from. My data is fully supported by the data. Look at Denmark.

Again, it's one freedom of information request for one specific piece of information. It's not a blanket ban on government information being refused.

If someone reasonable genuinely wanted the bulk of the information they would work with the ico to access it.

The information is wanted that’s why it was requested. The tribunal will look at the reasons Labour have put forward but the ICO already rejected their objections.

It’s the ICO v MoJ now to see if they have to release.

Why don't people understand that we have bad domestic men here. But crime rates here (in general) are far lower than in the rest of the world.

Womens rights and VAWG are worse in Afghanistan,. Somalia and Sudan compared to the UK. Does it not make logical sense that if VAWG is higher in certain nations that maybe the men of those nations coming to the liberal west may pose some threat

I appreciate you’re well informed about this, thank-you for the clarity.

I do think it’s dangerous to characterise this as a “cover up”, though - as some parties seem to be doing. From what I understand, the government disagree with the ICO ruling, hence appealing the decision. I absolutely appreciate the family’s pain and their desire for transparency but I do also see why the government might be weighing that against privacy concerns, and - in my opinion very real - risk of vigilante violence. We’ll see what the tribunal decides. But either way, I sincerely hope whatever information is released doesn’t fuel further division.

Does it not make equally logical sense to think that some men are dangerous to women, and such men are found in every ethnicity and nationality? But when in countries where VAWG is tolerated, these men do not bother to moderate themselves in the way western men predisposed to this behaviour may do to avoid the consequences? And it is this that leads to the disparity, rather than an inate greater propensity to the behaviour amongst some ethnicities and nationalities?

This is a really thoughtful, interesting point. I also wonder if there’s anything to consider in the fact that - certainly in the case of genuine asylum seekers - migrants might well actually be leaving their home countries because they reject any violence prevalent there..? In which case, aren’t those people choosing to move to the west potentially least likely to hold those harmful cultural attitudes..? In which case, the crime rates in those countries is not necessarily useful. I don’t know - but I certainly don’t think it’s helpful to see all men from any particular place as inherently violent or dangerous. And the problem with any data that does get released is you worry that people will use it to argue whatever they want to.

Spot on post.

And it's not as if we don't have lessons from history about what can happen when groups of people are "othered" or singled out. Especially at Government level. The labour Party, and I the Tories before them, are fully aware of history when it comes to refugees. The Tories being aware might explains why Robert Jenrick was not pushing all the data out when he was at the Home Office, but it pushing for it all now, given that he has outed himself as "far right", my migrating to a different party.

The story of the M.S. St. Louis is one example. What a sad story, and a stain on the nations of freedom

A Ship of Jewish Refugees Was Refused US Landing in 1939. This Was Their Fate | HISTORY

The Tories are not my cup of tea, but I can say with total confidence, that as a party, they are not cold hearted basta- like a couple of Parties are. The Parties that really only have one policy, immigration.

Anecdotally, I post on the Iran war threads. And I notice a Venn diagram overlap for posters who are very much in the "bomb them " camp, who are also in the "no refugees" circle. The Tories however, are fully aware that people fleeing danger and persecution need refuge. Ukraine and Hongkong come to mind. Add to that Iranians and Afghans and many more. They were fully aware that many people genuinely needed help. And that these groups should not be collectively thrown to the wolves because of some "bad people", for want of a better term.

And if we take this Venn diagram, with it's two circles so far. " bomb them" and " no refugees", and we add a third circle. " Islamophobic", the overlap between all three will be significant.

And if we drop a "racist" circle on to, I would not be surprised if that was fully contained within the other 3 circles described above.

Like on so many other things, the "..phobes" will jump on any issue that suits their agenda, and amplify it.

Goodness me. You are really stuck on this semantics thing aren't you ?

I am still waiting for this extensive list of " all I got wrong".

As a matter of interest, on semantics, do you agree that the Tribunal is not an open court ? As in, that if caught speeding or whatever, the Tribunal is not where where will end up as you fight against the points and fine.

I posted a link to an article that had a similar story that was being discussed, and my comment "People do see many things in different ways"., and from that one comment, you deduced that I don't " get the full picture "?

I think you have made a few leaps of logic there. I should have expanded sorry. It's an observation on how different media can, and does, shape opinion. And perhaps how it can reinforce existing prejudices.

Do you remember Aylan Kurdi ? The little boy whose death, for a little while, stopped the world. I do. And it stopped me in my tracks. And for lots of people, including me, I am still stopped in my tracks over those photos. And it appears a lot of media sources maybe are too. And lets throw in this thing called compassion, and an ability to see a much bigger picture. A global picture.

Alan Kurdi: Did the photo of a dead child on a beach change anything? | News World | Metro News

Quote " It does beg the question why would a parent risk their children's lives with this dangerous crossing."

I think to answer that, I won't say " because English is the most taught language", but I will try to paint a bigger picture.

Imagine you are in far off land. A family member is maybe being hunted for political, conscription, or religious reasons. Or maybe you are desperate to escape poverty. To want a better life. To get away, get a job to send money home to loved ones. Maybe to try to get settled, and hope loved ones can join you later.

So you call in the local fixer who can arrange things. And he shows you newspaper articles etc to try to sell you a product. And remember, the fixer wants to make as much money as possible.

What newspapers articles will he show ? How about GB news or the like. Farage on the front page, headlines are " UK has open borders", "Migrants get free money, free houses, 4 star hotels, free medical, chain migration".

What product will those grandparents, extended family etc decide to buy ? And who will they send ?

Do you think if Farage and palls really cared about migration, the best thing for them to do is to stand on a world soapbox and yell mistruths and lies so loudly that they can be heard by people in persecuted and impoverished communities worldwide ? Or should he maybe tone it down a little, so he is not helping the traffickers sell their product?

That is the big picture I see. Can you see the same picture as me ?

I read this logic a lot, but can you not see that you’re conflating two completely different things? Culture and individual personality are not the same.

Culture consists of socially learned norms, attitudes and behaviours. It does not determine someone’s innate personality, their moral character or individual propensity to commit sexual violence. Think about it - two people raised within exactly the same culture can have radically different personalities and behaviours. So even though you can argue that particular attitudes towards women are more prevalent within certain cultures (you will certainly get no arguments from me about that), you can't just transfer those characteristics onto every individual who comes from those cultures. I'm amazed this even needs explaining.

As an example, the US has a much stronger gun culture and a substantially higher homicide rate than the UK. But you wouldn’t be on here arguing that Americans in Britain are more likely to murder someone because 'culture.' You would need evidence showing that Americans living in the U.K. actually are murdering at higher rates before making that claim - as far as I know there is no evidence of this. If this still needs stating, a news article or any number of emotive articles or anecdotes about Americans who actually have murdered people in the U.K. (because of course there will be some) is not what I mean by 'evidence.' Anyone can find articles or anecdotes to back up any agenda.

There is also a fundamental problem in assuming that migrants are representative of the societies they have left. Why would you assume this? If anything, they are likely to be less conforming or they left precisely because they reject aspects of the society they came from. If you were in the Taliban 'establishment' or on the right side of them, why would you flee a society where you have power? I'm sure you realise that the millions live in terror because are deemed not on the right side of the Taliban - it doesn't take much. This is why they put their lives in the hands of these terrible people smugglers. Do you really think the majority people in Iran are fans of the regime there? Really? Just be glad you don't have to make the life choices some people have to make. Would your innate character be different if you happened to have been born in Iran? Or would you be the same person, just in Iran?

This is not to say that all migrants will be delightful members of society. In any group, there will be some bad actors. I am not here to defend rapists ffs - why would I be? I'm not here to defend any men from anywhere, quite the opposite in fact. I'm just here to try to defend against hypocrisy and insidious racist stereotyping where I see it, because it's dangerous and I think we should be better than this. That's it. Otherwise we're not a great nation at all, are we.

Very well put.

And I think much what you say can be joined to what I have just posted today, with some gaps filled in by expanding some things.

Many people in general, living in these impoverished oppressive states, have had generations of indoctrination and censorship. And for anyone who wants to break free of that, the local gang lords are right there ready, with their stories of "streets paved with gold" to sell them. The very stories that Farage etc broadcast.

This reminds me of the Morcombe Bay cockers tragedy. I was talking to a Chinese national about it not long after, and they said the victims mostly came from the same small poor area in China. And what happened is one or two people had "escaped" to the west, sent money home to the family, The family had built mansions with that money, and the neighbours said " Oh, how did you manage that". And a whole trafficking industry from that area was spawned.

And as that story unfolded, it turned out what I had been told was true. And it was the UK police and Government, working with their Chinese counterparts, who shut down that specific industry in that specific area. Arrests were made people convicted, and the UK introduced new gang master laws. And China expanded their own gang smashing operation all over.

And the thing is, the Cockle Picker story is connected to the Migration Watch FOI thing. Because although China is not seen as a "friendly nation" as such, the Governments do need to work together to try to solve things. And when you have a segment of the political class yelling for total visa bans, that would likely antagonize the very nations that Government are trying to work with, no matter how limited that working together is.

It is my firm belief that Farage and palls have no interest at all in helping solve these issues. They want to make it worse. Because they benefit from it politically. It is their only path to power.