Aibu feeling uneasy about men taking little girls to the toilet in the womens toilet?

But this is exactly the problem - caregiving automatically and disproportionately falls on women, to their detriment both health wise and poverty wise. Society is set up so that women are the default caregivers, whether for children or for disabled relatives (in this case both). Some men care for their wives, some men are carers, some men do the lions share of childcare. But our society is not set up very well to enable this and often those men are vilified when going about basic care duties.

Maybe I feel as strongly as I do because this fight happened in our church years ago when my babies were small. Some women felt strongly that men should be kept out of "Mum and baby" areas and spaces as women may be breastfeeding, needed privacy and female only support etc. I don't disagree with having a separate space for breastfeeding, but Dads were successfully locked out of participating in basic caregiving responsibilities and toddler groups at that church as a result. It was very clear the expectation was babies and children are womens work. I felt so sorry for the poor Dad's who were just looking around for somewhere to take their toddlers, to get support, and to do basic things like changing nappies not in the foyer or on the floor in the gents.

Those women then had the gall to complain that men didn't do enough as Dads and they had to keep missing the service because of "the baby".

None of that is to say there is a free for all on single sex spaces. Just that - at times - it may be necessary for a male carer to access the female toilets in order to carry out caregiving duties.

Quite often this is a moot point, as the Dads I know only take their kids to places that have either unisex or family rooms available. They self-select out of places that don't. We did the same when our kids were little for exactly this reason - I didn't want to have sole responsibility for taking my children to the toilet just because I am a woman. I objected on principle, so we adjusted our life and spending to those places where both parents were equally catered for.

This has been an incredibly odd thread. And I have known some odd toilet threads in the past!

I have been researching toilet safety for years. I have a lot of data and evidence of what goes on in toilets. I won’t repeat it here, you can look at my previous posts on this thread or other threads.

What I will repeat is that men should not be bringing girls into the women's toilets.

I will also say is that I have never known so many posts on toilets. There’s a concerted effort from people to thwart single sex places by creating whataboutery exemptions.

I guess the question is whether your data has been collected in isolation, and whether your research meets scholarship-level with appropriate ethical permissions or is self directed adhoc Internet research.

I have no doubt bad things go on in toilets. DD goes to a single sex school - brutal assaults have happened in the toilets there to the degree staff have locked all facilities bar one during class time, and they are actively monitored during break time. But we don't like to talk about girl on girl violence, particularly when it's girls attacking other girls for being "lesbo" or talking to another girls boyfriend outside of school. DS goes to a coed school, unisex toilets, the level of assaults appear to be similar. So I'm not sure what that says really, other than teens these days are a whole other level of feral. The P babies are coming through.

I maintain the most dangerous bathrooms are the ones in private homes. If you want sex segregation in public - fine. I've mostly grown up that way. I can understand the argument for it. But if it was such the vaunted protection it's being made out to be, why were we all taught and knew almost how we knew to breathe that as girls you don't go to any public restroom - sex segregated or otherwise - alone?

All I ask is that in your zeal for sex segregation, perhaps campaign for family rooms and unisex options to also be mandatory (not poorly combined with disabled). Everyone should be able to go to the toilet with safety and dignity.

Also I'm surprised at your surprise - this issue has been dynamite on mumsnet over the past several years. It's not unusual to have a full bathroom / toilet thread on here. People have Opinions quite strongly either way.

I'm Kiwi, we appear to have less invested in this fight than a lot of other countries, perhaps because we grew up with many places having unisex or just the one toilet (if that) - especially at the beach and parks. I have peed in more than one bush in my time as a lot of places don't have any public toilets or they're just flat out gross. My current workplace the toilets are unisex single room with an absolutely massive disabled room, it works fine. It hasn't stopped certain political parties trying to whip up a fight on sex segregation for votes though.

What do you think is the common factor between toilets in private homes and private unisex design?

My research isn’t reinventing the wheel. It’s been known for decades. In BS6465 (at the time of the HS&W 1992), doors and partitions not finishing at floor level and space above the door and partitions was stated to be advantageous for the prevention of misuse and supervision (especially young and old) also cleaning and ventilation.

I also have 2 science degrees and am an ex-teacher so do know my way around academic papers.

This thread is wild. Men should not be in women’s toilets. A man with a small female child should bring her in the men’s toilets if no family room is available. Likewise a female parent would bring a small boy into the women’s toilets. I can’t imagine batting an eye at a little boy in the women’s loo, but I would be really uncomfortable to see an adult male.

Yes, even New Zealanders on here. It’s obviously been ‘picked up’ somewhere.

For @Boppydoodah I want as few unisex designs as possible. As far as safety goes, supervision comes from the people around you so medical incidents, assaults, being trapped can be seen and heard. I don’t know New Zealand designs, but if they are like Australian and U.K. unisex ones they are enclosed. I would actually like additional accessible toilets, with gaps above and below the doors and partitions, within single sex accommodation. Those could be used by non ambulant independent people and by parents with buggies so free up the traditional accessible toilet.
It’s really late so just a couple of academic articles on why we need single sex toilets as unisex toilets aren’t as healthy or as safe:
https://salus.global/article-show/pathogen-findings-raise-concerns-about-move-to-unisex-hospital-facilities
Since you mentioned schools here’s an international one:
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0014292125000030
Plenty more medical ones too on how being seen or heard in a toilet affects outcomes.

Glad to hear it. I've been around evangelical circles a long time, "I've done my own research" is usually a red flag. Glad to be proven wrong.

Interestingly the brutal assaults taking place at school are all in rooms with partitioned cubicles. One poor kid was given a fairly serious injury due to being stomped on the head while screaming and piled onto on the floor near the sinks, and trying to get out of the toilets while other kids filmed it. DS was witness to this, coed school, unisex toilets, all parties girls. Police were involved, charges laid, the whole nine yards.

My objection is not that toilets are unsafe - I think they're some of the most unsafe places out there. My objection is to the idea sex segregation somehow makes them safe instead of safer. My lived experience says otherwise. My DC at different schools, different policies, similar levels of assaults in toilets. Rapists don't stop at doors, signs, cubicles. Disabled people and families are often competing for the same poorly designed, inadequate spaces. Dads are often excluded from parent child facilities placed in female-only spaces. Something has to change on that front. That's all.

Oh and those "safe partitions"? Actively used in my DCs schools as an opportunity to film children using toilets or changing, then posted on the internet or around chat groups. Both in the girls and unisex toilets, the boys appear sexually motivated / violent, the girls just want to humiliate and ostracize each other.

So no I don't think research takes into account things like smartphones and the Internet. That has changed the game significantly.

And this is with an active smartphone ban at the school. Doesn't stop it from happening. Revenge posting is absolutely a thing. My DC use the school toilets as little as physically possible - and again, this is happening across the single sex and unisex spaces. Different motivations, and personally I think the coed school should have sex segregated toilets available for girls on their period (they combined them as an effort to stop drug use and sex in the toilets, not sure what the logic is except they can lock off all but one lot of toilets off so staff can actively monitor).

Oh ffs. I've been on this forum for about 16yrs. I went on last night because I was bored. You are aware there are a ton of international people on here right, the Internet is global. Not everything is a conspiracy.

Oh and ok. Seeing as we're talking about what we want - I want my kids to be able to use their school toilets without being filmed or seriously injured by other students. This is happening in both sex segregated and unisex spaces, all the design you mentioned with clear visibility. It doesn't stop it. Those who intervene are often confronted with knives. DS tried to intervene in the incident outlined above - it didn't work.

I don't envy teachers of today. When you're dealing with P babies and kids exposed to and desensitized to violence, who think streaming violence is funny, what the hell do you do?

The problem with phones is being made easier in the UK with new phone rules in schools. However it is easier to police as the perpetrators risk being caught. Hidden cameras are a massive problem in toilets. This is an all male crime and is rife in unisex toilets because of opportunity and placement sites. There’s links to academic works in this article.
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2025/may/27/secret-spy-cameras-voyeurism-uk

This is an article about schools and toilets with total privacy, this time in Wales. It discusses serious problems, particularly for girls and medically vulnerable: https://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/education/drug-dealing-drinking-dirt-problems-28517175

Toilets are vulnerable places. They need to be kept single sex so the designs can stay single sex and not completely private for misuse.The co-ed school should have single sex toilets within a single sex environment.

When you have firms making money out of schools by selling voice activated alarms specifically for their ‘gender-neutral’ toilets with the prompts ‘stop it’ ‘help me’ it should be a massive wake up call that unisex toilets don’t work because of the privacy and the fact it’s mixed sex use.

V late (early) now so I am off. Glad you are thinking about design and safety. No it’s not a conspiracy but many toilet posters have different interests other than safety. In a fast paced toilet thread, more so.

And to be clear. Partitions enable children to be filmed and posted on the internet. Has happened multiple times at our local schools. That design actually enables a different type of sexual violence and degradation. So don't pretend like your way is standing in protection of everyone else - it is not.

We have phone bans in schools. My DC say those bans and rules are useless. Phones are as prevalent as ever, just more hidden which arguably makes it worse. Yes children are caught later, but it's very difficult to undo the harm once it's out there on the internet. It is almost impossible to erase. So there's that - these kids don't care about being caught. They care about the prestige they get from their friends and quite often families.

A lot of this violence is tied up with gangs, drugs, and toxic Internet groups actively encouraging these behaviours. A lot of it is brain damaged kids enacting absolute chaos. I would prefer their access to being able to stand on toilets and film my kid from above to be prevented, thanks. Because that's what's happening.

And again, I've grown up with mostly sex segregated in larger public areas (schools, malls etc) - I never ever visited any alone. Neither did my friends. School we all went together. Girls go to bathroom in groups, increasingly so do boys. Visibility comes from people around you who care about your well-being. It comes from positioning toilets in an area where those coming and going can be observed and heard. There's a reason why when my 9yo DS would go into the mens I'd stand watch outside, usually check verbally they're ok twice, and take note of the men coming and going in case descriptions are needed. Where possible I sent my boys in together, same reason.

Personally I prefer single room unisex with walls and a lockable door, I am very aware there could be cameras but hey - my electrician and plumber are male, I'm married to a man, I have my DCs male friends over to my house as well as male relatives and friends - there could be cameras placed anywhere in my house that I don't know about. I am much more likely to be harmed by someone who knows me than a random stranger. So I choose not to be paranoid, because then where exactly do you stop?

I do draw the line at people being able to stand over you in the toilets to actively film and stream you online. I'm horrified my kids have to deal with this. And I never undress all the way in changing rooms.

Making the partitions go up to the ceiling at the sides would be a next best solution if teachers have so little control. The toilets need to be single sex. Good night

They can also go under ... though you have more ability to stomp on the phone and smash it that way, so I guess that's better.

And again, my DD is dealing with this in her single sex school. It's not just boys.

I’d rather see a dad take his young daughter into the women’s toilets, then see a young girl be taken into the men’s.

Children’s dignity and safety should always come before an adults.

Oh and this isn't about teachers "having so little control" - it's a combination of many social ills coming together with poor resourcing of state schools. In my view no teacher should have to risk their life to "keep order" - and that is where we are at.

For avoidance of doubt, P babies is the colloquial phrase for children who have been exposed to or affected by methamphetamine use - whether in utero, use in the home, manufacturing in the home, witnessing the violence and organized crime that runs alongside etc. Often goes with poor impulse control, poor executive functioning, poor emotional regulation and explosive or violent anger.

Meth or "P" is extremely prevalent in NZ, it is often far easier to get than marijuana, and is very cheap. I live in an area that often is named the P capital of NZ, the effects of that plus the internet world and greater poverty is wreaking absolute havoc in our schools. Every school in our area is feeling the effects, and they get very little help to deal with it. Most of the management and consequences land squarely on our kids through sheer lack of resourcing, and the toilets are one of the worst places for this. That and being outside the local shops directly after school.

This is not on teachers alone to solve.

What’s stopping you from campaigning for them then? Instead of demanding everyone else do it, be the change you want to see in the world. Go get em Tiger.

So you agree, little boys should be taken into the men’s, even if their carer is a woman? Or are you saying men get single sex spaces, but women have to put up with men coming into their spaces? Seems rather unfair don’t you think?

The loos are private cubicles. There is no way a little girl should have to use the men’s. His knows what she’d see in there.

what harm is it doing him taking her in the women’s? All the toilets are private anyway and it’s just one man. He’s not using them?

i think this is all very odd. Ffs child comes first.