To think in life being a nice, good person rarely counts for much?

But thats not what the OP is arguing- she is arguing that its always the kind people who get trodden on and left out.

I am saying it isnt.

That has never been the case.

Yes exactly. I have no idea what not being picked for a football team has got to do with being a "good person" 🤣

Certainly, the least popular person could be a kind person. They could also be a total bitch. They could also be someone buying their way into the group via providing services, gaining them a reputation for ‘kindness’ when in fact it’s pretty transactional or from a fear that saying no would see them dropped. They could also be someone who is not particularly kind or unkind, just average, like most people.

There’s not necessarily any correlation.

It counts for you though doesn’t it? We should all try and be better people, for ourselves and not just to benefit others.

It’s a lazy cliche, much trotted out on Mn, that popular people are invariably power-crazed and cruel with the power popularity gives them, while the unpopular secretly have hearts of gold that go unnoticed. ETA And it’s transposed here from friendship into team sports, where the ‘nice’ friend who always gives lifts and is ‘kind’ but isn’t popular turns into the player who shows up to all training sessions and doesn’t make the team.

Yep I’ve noticed this too, and I don’t believe it either.

All the genuinely popular people I know have one main thing in common: excellent social skills. They’re good communicators, they have healthy self-esteem and confidence, and they take a genuine interest in other people. They have a natural ease about them that comes from not being desperate for friendship or constantly seeking approval. They’re the kind of people who squeeze every last drop out of life. They arent constantly moaning or whining about what a victim they are. Being around them feels uplifting and effortless.

They’re comfortable in their own skin, and that’s an incredibly attractive quality.

None of them are “bitches” or “nasty”. In fact, most of them are kind, decent people who simply happen to be socially confident and enjoyable to be around.

It’s simply not true that you have to be some kind of Machiavellian mastermind or secretly horrible to be popular. Sometimes people are just popular because they’re actually likeable. Shocking, I know! 🤣

I agree. Being nice gets you nowhere, in fact it gets you bullied and walked over.

Late in life I now really resonate with the expression “no good deed goes unpunished”.

They skewered this once on Sabrina the Teenage Witch 😀 Sabrina turned Libby, the queen bee, into a nerd, but Libby stayed just as bullying and superior as she'd been as the most popular girl in school. When Sabrina turned her back, she carried on happily as a nerd, just a bullying, superior and snobby one. Turned out she didn't care what clique she was in; as long as she could exclude and look down on people, she was happy!

You are correct of course and it isn’t fair. I’m 63 now but I remember with clarity realising when I was 28 that life wasn’t fair, it was a relief in a way.
I’ve tried to fight back and meet nastiness with nastiness but it always results in me feeling bad about myself. These days I do me, I am kind to people and if they return my kindness with unpleasantness where I can, I avoid them. That’s my reason for being myself, being kind and caring. At night when I go to sleep I can feel peaceful because I have not permitted those who don’t share my values to change me. That’s worth a lot to me.

Even if the bully starts to have a detrimental effect on team performance and morale?

You’re correct. Gets you nowhere. If I had girls I’d be teaching them to be selfish bitches.

I agree with that, yes.

It means I can live with myself and be proud of my actions.

I can feel peaceful because I have not permitted those who don’t share my values to change me

I like this.

Depends on the individual circumstances. Sometimes difficult people who are also very talented get away with a lot because they’re indispensable.

In my experience as a parent of young adults, those that were the unpleasant 'popular ' mean girl or football star types have not really moved on from that and stayed in our small town. The less popular kids like mine branch out in college, became resilient and blossomed a bit later. I hope for the most part genuinely unpleasant people don't thrive but there are exceptions obviously.

@TipsyMoose can you recall what the phenomena was called?

I have found the opposite in life, personally, and I’m excelling in my profession (which can be quite aggressive and competitive) - having gone self-employed - because of my reputation as being a decent, honest and kind person. I also seem to have amazingly honest and decent friends. Family are a bit of a mixture but mainly good too! I also rarely have any hostile interactions generally. I find if you are positive and friendly you get the same back. Maybe I’ve just been lucky?
(aware I probably sound unbearably smug!)

This is a terrible attitude!

It teaches kids that the sports team is a meritocracy, where the merit is being able to play well.

Think of it this way, would you rather be operated on by a surgeon who is a bit of an arsehole, but the best surgeon, or by the really nice person who is kind to everyone he meets but isn't that good at surgery?

It isn't that being nice doesn't get you anywhere, it's more than in certain circumstances, being nice isn't actually the most important quality for completing the task in hand.

This isn't to say bad behaviour should be indulged or ignored simply because the individual is a brilliant footballer, and if it isn't being addressed at all then that's an issue. Certainly thinking he's too good to turn up to training needs to be knocked on the head. But at the end of the day, if the goal is to win games, you are going to choose the players who will help you achieve that goal, just as if the goal is to have a successful heart transplant, you are going to choose the surgeon with the best record.

Being nice is a good thing to be. Bullies aren't always terribly happy people. But being nice is never going to fast track you into a team or job if you aren't the most capable. Because the end goal is to win the game or save the patient.

Are you a man?