Is it only white middle class women who are GC?

[Ziegfeld]

I recently summoned courage to have “the talk” with an old friend who is gay. I wanted to know his current thoughts on sex based rights, and I thought (as we are old friends) even if we disagreed we could have a civilised conversation about it.

Unfortunately I think he called me transphobic about five minutes into the conversation when I asked, so if we say let’s have self ID, how do we tell whether someone genuinely believes themselves to be a TW or is a man simply announcing he is a woman solely for the purposes of accessing women-only spaces for bad intent. ( His answers to that were “well we need safeguarding” and “there are hardly any TWs, this isn’t a real concern” and “well ideally we should all just have gender neutral changing rooms”)

Some more things were said by both of us which I won’t go into here because I am sure we’ve all heard them before.

But then he said that it’s only white middle class women (like me) who have a problem with self ID and allowing TW access to women’s spaces. He said that working class women and women of colour have no problem at all with it.

I don’t think this is true - look at Allison Bailey for example. But I would be interested to know what other MNers think. Is this a race and class issue? Or is it that white middle class women tend to have more platforms to speak out than other women?

[dyslek]

I believe it has been established on these boards that white middle class women are over represented in the twaw brigade.
Black and working class women are less invested in this nonesense.
Your friend is talking out of his arse, I would have to reassess the friendship, sorry.

[Rummikub]

No it’s not only white middle class women who are GC.

[JackGrealishsShorts]

Your friend is wrong and a total arse.

[Shedbuilder]

No, loads of gay men and lesbians and people from all walks of life are GC. Marian Miller and her Scottish witches friends describe themselves as working class women.

Try Mr Menno:

www.facebook.com/mrmenno/

or Arty Morty

www.youtube.com/c/artymorty

They are both gay men who see how mad this is. Suggest he checks them out. They may make him think differently.

[TooWicked]

In my own experience, most of the white middle class women that I know are either completely oblivious to any of this, or if they are aware they are in the TWAW brigade.

[BloomingTrees]

It sounds like he brought up race and class to avoid answering your awkward questions which he couldn't answer.

Would he consider dating a transparent?

[BloomingTrees]

Transman not transparent

[KingdomScrolls]

No it's not but IME other groups of women have more on their plate so it's not in the foreground for them

[Clymene]

Gender critical women who have in in court this year in the U.K.:

Sonia Appleby
Keira Bell
Allison Bailey
Maya Forstater
Raquel Rosario Sanchez

None of them are white.

I'd suggest BAME women are over represented actually. Impending my experience they take a dim view of other people appropriating their struggles.

[everythingcrossed]

Dismissing an issue as "white and middle class " is a very overrated way of closing an argument down.

[Theeyeballsinthesky]

OP I would just love your friend to trundle around say for example Boston (the lincolnshire one) Middlesbrough, Chatham (I was born there) & Wolverhampton with photos of alex Drummond, Laurel Hubbard,& Danielle muscato Abd ask them if they’re a) male or female & b) which changing rooms they should be in

He’s living in an utter bubble which he can afford to do because as always none of this affects him

[GCAcademic]

I'm not white. How dare this man decide what I am happy with? He can get to fuck.

[SpindleWhorl]

What a very racist and classist assertion of your friend, OP. Some of the finest minds fighting for the rights of female humans are Women of Colour, and/or are working class. Oh, and gay/LBG. Maybe he can stick that intersectionality in his pipe.

It's such a desperate tactic to shut down discussion.

It's not even logical. Does a white m-c adult human female have no human rights, then? Of course they do. Including sex-based rights.

[BloomingTrees]

Wasn't that a criticism of the suffragettes, yet they managed to get all women the vote.

[BlaBlaSmthSmth]

@Theeyeballsinthesky

OP I would just love your friend to trundle around say for example Boston (the lincolnshire one) Middlesbrough, Chatham (I was born there) & Wolverhampton with photos of alex Drummond, Laurel Hubbard,& Danielle muscato Abd ask them if they’re a) male or female & b) which changing rooms they should be in

He’s living in an utter bubble which he can afford to do because as always none of this affects him

I live in one of those places and I second that suggestion 😁

[somethinginoffensive]

1. He's wrong.

1. What's his point? Does he not see middle class women as people?

[yourhairiswinterfire]

I also live in one of those places and third that suggestion

I personally don't know a single person that buys this nonsense, thankfully.

[BlaBlaSmthSmth]

@dyslek

I believe it has been established on these boards that white middle class women are over represented in the twaw brigade.
Black and working class women are less invested in this nonesense.
Your friend is talking out of his arse, I would have to reassess the friendship, sorry.

I agree with this.. TWAW is a very privileged position to take. It shows such little empathy for the most vulnerable women who will be worst affected by their ideology.

[StPaulsCathedral]

Karen from You're Kiddin', Right? doesn't mince her words on the subject. Here's her video on the spagate:

Also, the women at the centre of the Wi spa debacle wasn't white either, no idea what her 'class' is though. As an aside, if you haven't watched Karen before please do. She's hilarious and very direct, her review of was very funny.

The men from the LGB Alliance have a very calm discussion here:



But you know this, it's simply a way of shutting you down and in the easiest way possible. He's showing his own misogyny in this treatment of you. White middle class males are not silenced in the same way.

[TheWeeDonkey]

From what I've seen it takes a hell of a lot of very expensive education for people to believe that men become women just because they feel that way.

Anyone at the coal face of real sexual politics knows exactly what is a man and what is a woman.

[Tanith]

Is your friend working class? Is he black, Asian - a "person of colour" 🙄?

What would he know? He has no right to speak for any of us.

[TheWeeDonkey]

Also tell him to spend 5 minutes on Lipstick Alley and "educate himself" as the saying goes.

Is he white, is he middle class?

I am neither and I could see how self ID would impact women from the first time I heard about it.

[Cailleach1]

It is a funny place we're in, isn't it? This man is telling you that women's expectation of safety, dignity and fairness is hateful, and pretending the ubiquitous men centred, oppressive view of women is 'progress'.

Men are really taking the p. Well, the misogynistic gobsh*tes at any rate.

Fabulous women of colour leading the way on this and a celebration of sisterhood by women of all skin hues. Women are women, and only women are women! Protected, biologically factual and mainstream view in society and science. Keira Bell, Raquel Rosario Sanchez, Allison Bailey, Sonia Appleby to name just a few.

Indeed, it is the advocates (well men anyway) of this repackaged and resurgent women's oppression movement who try to single out women of colour and seem to think they can identify and single out black women as a separate group. I don't understand that. I don't know any woman who thinks melanin changes your sex, or has any impact on your sex.

Also, you'd have to wonder why this chappie thinks women of any colour should be oppressed? Does this 'so progressive' chappie just hate some women. e.g. white women? It would also be extra ironic if he was a white chappie.

[Angelica789]

In my experience, in real life, most women are not aware of any of the debates going on around this issue, or even that it is an issue. A couple of friends with teenage kids I spoke to recently had never come across the term non-binary for example. The biggest online echo chamber effect is probably to convince us that most people have the same preoccupations that we do.

[NeverDropYourMooncup]

All that means is the default woman in his head is white and middle class. Like him, I suspect.

And if he were to be encouraged to think of women of other ethnicities, I reckon there would be a whole world of assumptions about religion to discount their opinions.