Talk

Advanced search

Response from Amnesty about their view on women's/trans rights

(104 Posts)
Wildlingyoumakemyheartsing Tue 16-Jun-20 16:12:10

I wrote to Amnesty because they responded to the Times article, saying that the UK was going downhill on LGBTQ+ rights. I am sure this is generic response, so I apologise if it has already been discussed previously, but I have attached it underneath.

'Thank you for your email.

You can read our response to the reports that the Government intends to scrap plans to bring gender recognition laws in line with human rights standards here; www.amnesty.org.uk/press-releases/uk-plans-drop-gender-recognition-reforms-would-see-uk-plummet-lgbt-equality-rankings. We find it extremely worrying.


Amnesty International is committed to campaigning for the rights of transgender people to live freely, authentically, and openly, and to have their gender legally recognised without having to go through a dehumanising, long and costly procedure. We live in a society that is more likely to discriminate and commit violence against transgender people, so we are proud to stand with them here in the UK and everywhere around the world. We dispute any assertion that self-identification will be used by men in order to access spaces where women are vulnerable to abuse or harassment. There is absolutely no evidence that this would happen. In countries where self-identification is already the process (Argentina, Ireland) the policy has had absolutely no impact on anyone other than trans people, making their lives easier. The reality is that men who abuse women already have plenty of existing opportunities to do so. Also, please note that access to single sex services is regulated by the Equality Act, not the Gender Recognition Act. The Equality Act is not up for reform.


We do not agree that our position will have a detrimental effect on women’s rights. This campaign and our response to the consultation are based on Amnesty’s research on legal gender recognition in multiple countries and on existing human rights standards. It also draws from our long-standing work on violence against women and its root causes. We have been discussing our stance with partners including women’s rights organisations in Scotland as well as England and Wales. We feel the current conversation, in particular on social media with regards to self-identification, is misguided and does a disservice to the great work of refuges and other spaces for survivors in terms of assessing risk and keeping people safe. Services and refuges for women have always served the small number of trans women who needed them; and used the same checks and safeguards to keep both trans women and cisgender women safe.


Restricting the rights of transgender people will not advance or protect women’s rights.


There were numerous responses to the Scottish consultation on the GRA recorded by rape crisis centres and other similar services. Responses from organisations to the Scottish consultation are available here: www.gov.scot/Topics/Justice/law/17867/gender-recognition-review/review-of-gender-recognition-act-2004-list-of-orga


Here are some examples:


Women's Rape & Sexual Abuse Centre Dundee & Angus - www.gov.scot/Resource/0053/00539505.pdf


“We are aware that there is discourse which suggests that a system of self-declaration would be a threat to women’s safe spaces. This is not our viewpoint. We want to emphasise that we already welcome self-identifying trans women into our safe spaces, that their inclusion does not in any way determine the safety of that space and that to suggest otherwise would be a disservice not only to our trans service users, but to the trans women working within our sector creating those safe spaces every day.”



Survivors Network - www.gov.scot/Resource/0053/00539458.pdf


“As an organisation that predominantly provides women-only services, we already work to a self-definition model. This works well for us and creates a space that is safe and welcoming for all women, cis and trans, which is very important to us. We welcome a move towards gender recognition laws that reflect our approach in recognising and validating trans people's identities.


Our organisation supports survivors of sexual violence and as a result safe and supportive spaces are vital. We don't consider that to be at odds with inclusion of trans women. Our understanding of gender-based oppression is not rooted in biology as such but in understanding womanhood as diverse and varied, with trans women's experiences holding an additional layer of bigotry and hatred in the form of transphobia as well as sexism. […] We hear a lot of fear-mongering about changes to the GRA making women-only spaces unsafe for cis women or that there will be men trying to get into these spaces. We want to make it clear that we, in our provision of women-only spaces and services, already work to the self-definition model proposed for the GRA.


We recognise trans women as women and also recognise the disproportionate levels of violence they experience due to their trans identities. This has in no way impacted negatively on our services or our service users.”



Forth Valley Rape Crisis - www.gov.scot/Resource/0053/00539308.pdf


“We currently support a model of self-declaration for those accessing our services and acknowledge that this will not change the way in which we work alongside survivors and those affected by sexual violence. If we do not allow space for survivors to self-declare their experience of their gender, we are not a survivor-led organisation and do not offer support which is relevant to those accessing it. We believe what survivors tell us about their experiences and know that they are best placed to tell us how this has affected them.


Forth Valley Rape Crisis already include and work with trans people on the basis of their self-declared gender identity and hope that the gender recognition law will be brought in line with our practice. We are hopeful the legislation will be reformed and believe that the rights and safety of trans people will be greatly improved and as a result.”


We invite you to read more about work on why we work on gender identity issues:

www.amnesty.org.uk/lgbt-gay-human-rights-sexual-orientation-gender-identity


www.amnesty.org.uk/we-support-reforming-gender-recognition-act


Kind Regards,

Charlie


Supporter Communications Team



Amnesty International UK,

The Human Rights Action Centre,

17-25 New Inn Yard,

London

EC2A 3EA'

OP’s posts: |
Gncq Tue 16-Jun-20 16:16:27

They've been disgusting for a long time

I think my turning point with Amnesty was when they had Shon Faye "enjoy ur erasure" present their international Womens day event.

growinggreyer Tue 16-Jun-20 16:17:17

The reality is that men who abuse women already have plenty of existing opportunities to do so

Says it all, really. I'm so glad I have never given them one penny and now I never will.

Kit19 Tue 16-Jun-20 16:17:46

"We dispute any assertion that self-identification will be used by men in order to access spaces where women are vulnerable to abuse or harassment. There is absolutely no evidence that this would happen"

apart from all the times that this has happened of course......

WellIWasInTheNeighbourhoo Tue 16-Jun-20 16:17:48

Replace trans women with men who identify as women and the whole thing reads quite differently.

Apollo440 Tue 16-Jun-20 16:20:52

I notice they only ask the organisations whose funding depends on accepting transwomen and not the women who use the services.

dayoftheclownfish Tue 16-Jun-20 16:23:41

Thank you for sharing. A few (maybe not entirely original) observations:

The evidence is taken from the statements of third sector organisations, not from direct testimonies of women who are affected by self-ID policies. There is something of third sector backscratching going on here.

IIRC, Forth Valley Rape Crisis is led by a transwoman.

"We dispute any assertion that self-identification will be used by men in order to access spaces where women are vulnerable to abuse or harassment. There is absolutely no evidence that this would happen."

Zero engagement with the documented harms THAT HAVE ALREADY OCCURRED in the UK because of self-ID policies being implemented, e.g. Karen White and Katie Dolatowski cases.

"The reality is that men who abuse women already have plenty of existing opportunities to do so."
So let's make it easier?

Somehow this reads as if we're still in 2018. But the debate has moved on. Are they running out of arguments?

TorkTorkBam Tue 16-Jun-20 16:23:58

I couldn't get past the first outright lie

We live in a society that is more likely to discriminate and commit violence against transgender people

Mind you, they left out the "than" clause of more likely ... than....

Amnesty used to be good at getting at the truth, ignoring the official line and finding out for themselves.

I despair at what happened to the good organisations of the past.

Stonewall erasing homosexual people to center straight fetish men.

Bodyshop afraid to say that women have periods.

Amnesty parroting western men claiming they are the most vulnerable without so much as a fact check.

sleepyhead Tue 16-Jun-20 16:25:01

"Amnesty International is committed to campaigning for the rights of transgender people to live freely, authentically, and openly, and to have their gender legally recognised without having to go through a dehumanising, long and costly procedure."

I have excellent news for Amnesty! Trans people in the UK currently live freely, authentically and openly and can have their gender legally recognised without having to go through a dehuminisingly long and costly procedure.*

*https://twitter.com/GlasgowMake/status/1147068002904543233

Phew! They must be so relieved.

ChazsBrilliantAttitude Tue 16-Jun-20 16:25:11

I got the same response. Word for word.

Totally failed to address my concerns.

ChazsBrilliantAttitude Tue 16-Jun-20 16:27:11

Self Id doesn’t cause harm except for the women raped in prison, the women put out of business by the Canadian waxing case etc.

OldCrone Tue 16-Jun-20 16:28:27

The reality is that men who abuse women already have plenty of existing opportunities to do so.

"So we'll help them by creating more opportunities."

ScrimpshawTheSecond Tue 16-Jun-20 16:30:10

Forth Valley Rape Crisis is led by a transwoman who knowingly applied for a job that was supposed to be female only, and laughed about fooling the employers.

Of course they support transwomen; they centre transwomen!

JellySlice Tue 16-Jun-20 16:32:43

We live in a society that is more likely to discriminate and commit violence against transgender people

More likely than what? Than against women? Than against men? Than against black people?

We dispute any assertion that self-identification will be used by men in order to access spaces where women are vulnerable to abuse or harassment. There is absolutely no evidence that this would happen.

Because men don't do this. They never gain positions of authority in churches, scouting groups, human rights charities, sports clubs and then go on to abuse the very women and girls they are there to support. No there is no evidence that men are ever anything other than what they say they are.

Kit19 Tue 16-Jun-20 16:32:55

i wonder if they realise how tone deaf they come across. There's not one shred of empathy in that response, no acknowledgemnt of your concerns however unfounded they might feel them to be

"The reality is that men who abuse women already have plenty of existing opportunities to do so"

to not say "and we are very aware of this and have programmes to tackle the abuse of women" or to even qualify it with "sadly" or "unfortunately" but instead to write it flat out like that as if to say "look lady it already happens so just shut up" really is appalling

I note as well the gender neutral name...

OvaHere Tue 16-Jun-20 16:35:17

This is a good twitter thread. It's about Scotland but really could apply anywhere in the UK.

There's a big issue with organisations being captured by a relatively small number of people and agenda laden groups.

What is missing from Amnesty's analysis is that those refuges are dependent on money which is only granted if they adhere to a specific ideology.

Regardless of what workers or service users think individually they have the difficult choice of providing a service that may make some women feel less safe, feel traumatised or not access their service at all (that is one of those known unknowns) and providing no service at all to anyone due to lack of funding.

Statements issued when those orgs have a proverbial gun to the head are no statement at all.

Also as a PP mentioned Forth Valley is run (totally inappropriately IMO) by a TW.

twitter.com/LiviaBurlando/status/1192403413306421248

ChazsBrilliantAttitude Tue 16-Jun-20 16:40:46

I have already gone back challenging them. I will take it as far as I can, to the Trustees if I have to.

OldCrone Tue 16-Jun-20 16:40:51

Also, please note that access to single sex services is regulated by the Equality Act, not the Gender Recognition Act. The Equality Act is not up for reform.

Do they understand that how the Equality Act deals with the interaction between the protected characteristics of gender reassignment and sex depends on whether the person has a GRC or not?

Self-ID has an effect on the Equality Act since more men will be able to be legally recognised as female.

Ninkanink Tue 16-Jun-20 16:41:16

Abhorrent.

‘There is absolutely no evidence that this would happen’ sounds an awful lot like it will never happen...

Now where have we heard that before...’It will never happen’

(Hint to anyone new who’s reading, search for that thread title on this topic)

As for the ‘well it already happens so put up and shut up,’ that’s just vile.

Shame on you. We see you.

SunsetBeetch Tue 16-Jun-20 16:57:15

If anyone is looking for an alternative charity to donate to, may I recommend Freedom From Torture? As far a I know, they don't go in for this woke nonsense.

www.freedomfromtorture.org/

SunsetBeetch Tue 16-Jun-20 17:04:46

It Will Never Happen - the thread

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3348290-It-will-never-happen-resource-thread

Enderthedragon Tue 16-Jun-20 17:23:10

The reality is that men who abuse women already have plenty of existing opportunities to do so

So suck it up biatches.

Whatsnewpussyhat Tue 16-Jun-20 17:30:24

TRA and allies; Most vulnerable folk on the planet......

Us; no, actually they really aren't if you look at the figures...

TRA and allies; Trans folk are completely harmless and just want to pee. No one would ever abuse self ID. Not ever...

Us; Very long list to prove this is bullshit......

TRA and allies; not real trans.....

Us; acceptance without exception? Every trans person is who they say they are?

TRA and allies;

BIGOTS!!!!!!!!!! TRANSPHOBES!!! YOU ARE LITERALLY MURDERING US BY SAYING NO!
CHOKE ON MY DICK.

Ninkanink Tue 16-Jun-20 17:31:40

Ahem,

Lady dick

FantaOra Tue 16-Jun-20 17:39:39

Liar liar pants on fire. The lieing liars that lie.

Anyway it's irrelevant now as the guidance will be changed by this government.

The bonfire of their lies begins.

Join the discussion

To comment on this thread you need to create a Mumsnet account.

Join Mumsnet

Already have a Mumsnet account? Log in