Response from Amnesty about their view on women's/trans rights

[Wildlingyoumakemyheartsing]

I wrote to Amnesty because they responded to the Times article, saying that the UK was going downhill on LGBTQ+ rights. I am sure this is generic response, so I apologise if it has already been discussed previously, but I have attached it underneath.

'Thank you for your email.

You can read our response to the reports that the Government intends to scrap plans to bring gender recognition laws in line with human rights standards here; www.amnesty.org.uk/press-releases/uk-plans-drop-gender-recognition-reforms-would-see-uk-plummet-lgbt-equality-rankings. We find it extremely worrying.



Amnesty International is committed to campaigning for the rights of transgender people to live freely, authentically, and openly, and to have their gender legally recognised without having to go through a dehumanising, long and costly procedure. We live in a society that is more likely to discriminate and commit violence against transgender people, so we are proud to stand with them here in the UK and everywhere around the world. We dispute any assertion that self-identification will be used by men in order to access spaces where women are vulnerable to abuse or harassment. There is absolutely no evidence that this would happen. In countries where self-identification is already the process (Argentina, Ireland) the policy has had absolutely no impact on anyone other than trans people, making their lives easier. The reality is that men who abuse women already have plenty of existing opportunities to do so. Also, please note that access to single sex services is regulated by the Equality Act, not the Gender Recognition Act. The Equality Act is not up for reform.



We do not agree that our position will have a detrimental effect on women’s rights. This campaign and our response to the consultation are based on Amnesty’s research on legal gender recognition in multiple countries and on existing human rights standards. It also draws from our long-standing work on violence against women and its root causes. We have been discussing our stance with partners including women’s rights organisations in Scotland as well as England and Wales. We feel the current conversation, in particular on social media with regards to self-identification, is misguided and does a disservice to the great work of refuges and other spaces for survivors in terms of assessing risk and keeping people safe. Services and refuges for women have always served the small number of trans women who needed them; and used the same checks and safeguards to keep both trans women and cisgender women safe.



Restricting the rights of transgender people will not advance or protect women’s rights.



There were numerous responses to the Scottish consultation on the GRA recorded by rape crisis centres and other similar services. Responses from organisations to the Scottish consultation are available here: www.gov.scot/Topics/Justice/law/17867/gender-recognition-review/review-of-gender-recognition-act-2004-list-of-orga



Here are some examples:



Women's Rape & Sexual Abuse Centre Dundee & Angus - www.gov.scot/Resource/0053/00539505.pdf



“We are aware that there is discourse which suggests that a system of self-declaration would be a threat to women’s safe spaces. This is not our viewpoint. We want to emphasise that we already welcome self-identifying trans women into our safe spaces, that their inclusion does not in any way determine the safety of that space and that to suggest otherwise would be a disservice not only to our trans service users, but to the trans women working within our sector creating those safe spaces every day.”





Survivors Network - www.gov.scot/Resource/0053/00539458.pdf



“As an organisation that predominantly provides women-only services, we already work to a self-definition model. This works well for us and creates a space that is safe and welcoming for all women, cis and trans, which is very important to us. We welcome a move towards gender recognition laws that reflect our approach in recognising and validating trans people's identities.



Our organisation supports survivors of sexual violence and as a result safe and supportive spaces are vital. We don't consider that to be at odds with inclusion of trans women. Our understanding of gender-based oppression is not rooted in biology as such but in understanding womanhood as diverse and varied, with trans women's experiences holding an additional layer of bigotry and hatred in the form of transphobia as well as sexism. […] We hear a lot of fear-mongering about changes to the GRA making women-only spaces unsafe for cis women or that there will be men trying to get into these spaces. We want to make it clear that we, in our provision of women-only spaces and services, already work to the self-definition model proposed for the GRA.



We recognise trans women as women and also recognise the disproportionate levels of violence they experience due to their trans identities. This has in no way impacted negatively on our services or our service users.”





Forth Valley Rape Crisis - www.gov.scot/Resource/0053/00539308.pdf



“We currently support a model of self-declaration for those accessing our services and acknowledge that this will not change the way in which we work alongside survivors and those affected by sexual violence. If we do not allow space for survivors to self-declare their experience of their gender, we are not a survivor-led organisation and do not offer support which is relevant to those accessing it. We believe what survivors tell us about their experiences and know that they are best placed to tell us how this has affected them.



Forth Valley Rape Crisis already include and work with trans people on the basis of their self-declared gender identity and hope that the gender recognition law will be brought in line with our practice. We are hopeful the legislation will be reformed and believe that the rights and safety of trans people will be greatly improved and as a result.”



We invite you to read more about work on why we work on gender identity issues:

www.amnesty.org.uk/lgbt-gay-human-rights-sexual-orientation-gender-identity



www.amnesty.org.uk/we-support-reforming-gender-recognition-act



Kind Regards,

Charlie



Supporter Communications Team





Amnesty International UK,

The Human Rights Action Centre,

17-25 New Inn Yard,

London

EC2A 3EA'

[Ninkanink]

@Michelleoftheresistance

the policy has had absolutely no impact on anyone other than trans people, making their lives easier.

Utter bollocks. As five minutes listening to female people and organisations trying to explain about this would prove. Repeatedly. Many female people have been impacted and will be impacted. This is wilful blindness to it.

Restricting the rights of transgender people will not advance or protect women’s rights.

More bollocks. The 'rights' being 'restricted' aren't rights and don't exist in law because they boil down to a) achieving the removal of female rights from females and b) the right to be recognised in law as something you objectively in reality are not. There's nothing else. There are no 'rights' held by any humans in the UK that trans people do not have. The 'rights' being sought are privileges that others will not be able to protect themselves or their own needs against.

And read that through and all you see is trans trans trans poor trans more trans. No mention of any other demographic or class other than to rubbish female people. And note which trans this is all about - as always - because as usual this is all about ensuring the centering and supremacy of those poor males over rotten, stupid females.

There is not enough glue in the world to be able to numb out all this mind bending stupidity and misogyny.

This.

Thank you.

[FantaOra]

To be honest there is no point writing to them again. The guidance will change and they will have to comply with the law.

They are stuffed

[FantaOra]

Then they can whinge on about how they don't care what women want and we will all be able to say we know that already, kiss my butt loser.

[dayoftheclownfish]

There are bigger questions here about the role of third sector organisations such as Amnesty and their place in society. Amnesty has a really interesting history but maybe it has outlived its usefulness.

How do NGOs die?

[Enderthedragon]

There is no empathy in that correspondence either. What about women who just don't want fucking penis in their spaces? What about women who will be uncomfortable with the presence of a male.

Amnesty are upset because men might not get to do exactly what they want, all the time. The right to legally pretend you are something you are not is not a human right!

[Abitofalark]

That reply is downright insulting and goading. What organisation is rotten enough to rub women's noses in the violence done to them, while showing callous disregard for their rights? Now we know. And look at the woeful attempt at condescension to a woman about knowledge of the relevant law. Idiotic creature of ignorant ill will.

[OvaHere]

Amnesty are upset because men might not get to do exactly what they want, all the time.

Tbh this seems to be Amnesty's core purpose. Not just on this issue either.

[Datun]

@FantaOra

To be honest there is no point writing to them again. The guidance will change and they will have to comply with the law.

They are stuffed

I agree with this.

What will happen is the guidance from the government will be enforced. And those who oppose it, will be exposed.

They will have to kick off massively in order to make their displeasure known.

And then everyone can hear what they are saying

[ChaToilLeam]

This is why Amnesty, in spite of the good work they have done in the past, isn’t getting another penny out of me.

Bloody disgrace the lot of them, especially Forth Valley’s claim to be “survivor-led”.

[MilesJuppIsMyBitch]

I've just cancelled a very long-standing direct debit to amnesty off the back of that e-mail.

[DuDuDuLangaLangaBingBong]

Does anyone have suggestions for orgs that campaign against the death penalty to support instead of Amnesty?

I won’t be donating to Amnesty again due to their position on women’s rights.

[FantaOra]

It's interesting to consider their timing, the arrogant "we think this that and the other", in the week the government has leaked the intention to make it absolutely clear they are wrong, and as we know they always have been. That news has obviously sailed right over their woke bubble heads, they probably don't even know what has been announced via the Times as no single employee or family member will be reading it or seeing the discussion anywhere. That's the downfall of being unwilling to engage with other viewpoints, when you find out the decision has gone against you you are pretty useless to anyone at all.

[OldCrone]

Did anyone else notice that the press release (link in the OP) was written by Chiara Capraro, Amnesty International’s Women’s Rights Programme Director?

[TheSingingKettle49]

The fact is that transwomen are NOT women, transwomen are men who have gender dysphoria.

Now I’m sorry that this material fact is upsetting for those men suffering from a medical condition, which for some unfathomable reason is not categorised as a mental health condition when it very clearly is, but just repeating a catchy mantra doesn’t make it true.

[FantaOra]

Ignore that post , clearly it is a response to the announcement. Even worse.

[FantaOra]

*TheSingingKettle

Now I’m sorry

No need to apologise.

[TyroSaysMeow]

We live in a society that is more likely to discriminate and commit violence against transgender people

Of which sex?

Why do we never see this broken down?

Society is more likely to discriminate and commit violence against gender-transgressing females than against gender-conforming females. Examples: corrective rape of lesbians; shaming of women who don't conform to patriarchal beauty standards, etc. The females who do conform also get shat on from a great height.

It's pretty bloody obvious that gender-transgressing males are treated harshly compared to gender-conforming males, and we could all write a bloody thesis on why.

Yet society is clearly not more likely to discriminate and commit violence against gender-transgressing males than against gender-transgressing females.

Why does no one ever bother actually comparing like with like?

But I shouldn't be surprised really, because the glaring absence here says it all:

Amnesty International is committed to campaigning for the rights of transgender people to live freely, authentically, and openly

And what about a commitment to campaigning for the rights of female people to live freely, authentically, and openly? Tumbleweed as usual on that one, I see.

[ShinyFootball]

'The reality is that men who abuse women already have plenty of existing opportunities to do so.'

This is really fucking shocking.

That amnesty international sees this as a good argument is. Dunno. Mind boggling?

Fuck them, in short.

[ShinyFootball]

'written by Chiara Capraro, Amnesty International’s Women’s Rights Programme Director?'

Oh lord.

So the women's rights director at amnesty UK says ''The reality is that men who abuse women already have plenty of existing opportunities to do so.'.

Fucking hell.

Also don't forget the thing that was put forward by amnesty in Ireland I think, which said sex was a human RIGHT. And them having well known men who profit from the sex industry (with the women doing the less pleasant 'work' of course) being consulted by amnesty around prostitution.

[Melia100]

Blah blah men men men blah blah men.

[ShinyFootball]

Yes that is way more concise!

This is fucking amnesty though. An organisation with a very strong reputation of standing up to terrible things for years. Yet another org that has forgotten that women are people to.

There was a really interesting thing posted a while ago about how with the banking crash and the extra regulation and the societal antagonism with bankers, a lot from that world moved into the less regulated charity sector. And took those values and skills with them. They are interested in making money. They are not people who are grass roots type people they are corporate.

So many well respected orgs going this way. And unlike private businesses (m and s etc) they have to have published aims, strategy etc etc

Girl guides ages ago was a real shocker. The only reason they are allowed to be girls only is because of the exemption around assisting people in certain groups who, for want of a better phrase, need a leg up. Extra room. Somewhere to be, outside of mainstream society. Their patron is (was?) The Queen. They changed their policies at the snap of a finger. And while the scouts for example are mixed sex and so put safeguarding in around that. The guides said no considerations were required as a make identifying as a girl or young woman is a girl or young woman. WTF? Camping etc. I mean FFS. Have they not heard of pregnancy?

When challenged initially by a brilliant woman on here who was SACKED for saying. Erm what??? And others. They said they had ALWAYS been a single gender org not a single sex org. Which breaks their own charter and the reason they were allowed to be single sex.

When asked about non binary girls etc the answer was they should be managed out to a more suitable org.

When asked about girls from families with religious beliefs that prevented them from attending these types of activities in a mixed sex setting, they said. They need to go somewhere else. Trans girls are more important.

GIRL FUCKING GUIDES.

ok this is a rant and most of you know this. But the litany of nonsense and utter disregard for girls is appalling.

No one is thinking about the impact on girls and women. Not even girl guides. Not even the equalities assesment about putting trans women in women's prisons, where the impact on the protected characteristic of sex had 'n/a' written against it.

I know you all know this so maybe this is for the lurkers.

[ShinyFootball]

Sorry that equalities assessment with n/a was Scotland.

[Langbannedforsafeguardingkids]

Amnesty can fuck off. I will be teaching my children they are an organisation that actively seeks to hurt women, and only cares about the "rights" of men. They clearly, from this response, do not feel women are truly human. Utterly appalling. And they will never, ever get any of my money.

[sandinmybellybutton]

@growinggreyer

The reality is that men who abuse women already have plenty of existing opportunities to do so

Says it all, really. I'm so glad I have never given them one penny and now I never will.

Exactly..so let's just swing the door right fucking open and welcome them with open arms....

[Thinkingabout1t]

I have often donated to Amnesty and bought products to support them. I have now unsubscribed from their communications and will not donate to them again.