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Transexual voices - twitter thread

(114 Posts)
OnThisHill Thu 16-Aug-18 01:38:16

Please read this, I really feel the tide is turning.
We are being heard. The message is getting out, but sadly, I think the gender activists have created a climate where a backlash will come, and these guys are saying the same.

BUT - I think we're reaching tipping point...... What do you all think?

OnThisHill Thu 16-Aug-18 01:42:28

OnThisHill Today 01:38
Hope this link works?…

heresyandwitchcraft Thu 16-Aug-18 02:01:26

Is this a new group for transsexuals? If so, I am very glad they are getting their voices heard. Because the transsexual narrative has (in my view) been hijacked by the current trans activist movement. I read their statement and found it very reasonable.

JessicaJonesJacket Thu 16-Aug-18 02:09:51

Did anyone else receive a security and privacy warning when they tried to click on the fb link at the end of the Twitter thread?

Apollo440 Thu 16-Aug-18 02:37:26

Really well laid out objections to the current trans activists and pulls no punches. You could certainly have a discussion with them. I think they would be allies.

1.We are a group of transsexual women from all walks of life who were diagnosed with the rare acute forms of gender dysphoria and treated in accordance with the modern medical science. We've completed medically our gender transitions, successfully integrated in the society & do our best to maintain meaningful personal, social and professional relationships as women.
We value our privacy and the hard earned social and professional respect and strive to remain the valuable members of the society contributing to it in many ways.
Our medical condition, social recognition & human rights are protected by a number of pieces of legislation which are hard won results of the decades of deprivation, ridicule, abuse & our struggle for the basic human rights: to be allowed to be & treated as equal human beings.

2.We are increasingly concerned about the erasure of our ‘transsexual’ identity, our medical and social rights and the proposals of ‘demedicalisation’ of our rare condition and replacement of it with the obscure notion of ‘transgenderism’ as an ‘umbrella term’ for a variety of gender exploring and gender expressing pursuits undertaken by the people who, on most occasions, have no gender dysphoria and very little, if not nothing, in common with us.

We are extremely concerned by the frequent statements in the media made by the people allegedly representing our interests among others that (a) ‘transsexualism’ is an outdated, non-medical, archaic, disused and even transphobic term of describing a ‘transgender’ person;
that (b) ‘gender dysphoria’ is no longer a medically recognised condition and is not required (along with any other medical observation or diagnosis or involvement of the medical professional ‘gate-keepers’) for a person to ‘self identify’ as a ‘transgender’;
that (b) ‘gender dysphoria’ is no longer a medically recognised condition and is not required (along with any other medical observation or diagnosis or involvement of the medical professional ‘gate-keepers’) for a person to ‘self identify’ as a ‘transgender’;

3.While ‘transgender’ and ‘trans’ were originally synonymous to those diagnosed as ‘transsexuals’, it is evident now that these terms are hijacked and appropriated by the self-proclaimed ‘social justice’ activists, transvestites/crossdressers, fetishists and people ‘exploring’ their gender, having complex mental health issues or the ulterior motives for their associations with ‘transgender’ community. This development prompted many transsexuals to refrain from using these terms and insist on being identified by our original medical term ‘transsexual’, disassociating as much as possible from those claiming to be ‘trans’ or ‘transgender’ without any medical justification.

4.We are concerned about the proposed ‘gender self id’ changes to the key legislation protecting specifically our needs and rights and expressly referring to ‘transsexuals’, not ‘transgender’, – Gender Recognition Act 2004. ‘Streamlining’ or making it easier for the individuals claiming to be ‘transgender’ without ‘gender dysphoria’ to obtain in an ‘over-the-counter’ manner the ‘Gender Recognition Certificates’ allowing them to change birth certificates and according them legal rights of the opposite sex and protections presently accorded to women and transsexuals under the Equality Act 2010 may bring adverse results. We believe that without genuine medical diagnosis, surgical and social transition, assurances of the absence of other mental health conditions and/or criminal record of violent or sexual crimes, an easier way of obtaining such significant documents would only result in the increase in crime and litigation, make our society less safe for everyone and cause a tremendous damage to the hard won good social reputation of the decent transsexual women. We strongly disagree with the recent claims by the Equality Committee that GRA-2004 was not working and needed to be changed dramatically. It worked well for most of the genuine transsexuals and the proposed changes would make it meaningless and serve not the needs of the people for whom it was originally drafted.

5.Having lived substantial parts of our lives as women and with women, we are particularly concerned about the rights of women of all ages and from all walks of life whose safety would be compromised by the uncontrollable self-identification of some men as women, their demands of access to female only spaces, their frequently demonstrated express misogyny, disrespect for the biological needs and specific rights of the young girls, mothers, lesbians and many other, traditionally, female only, social groups. While we greatly value the rights of the transsexuals, we would always object to any ‘trans rights’ encroaching and gradually erasing women’s rights or creating inaccurate medical, sports, criminal, consumer, political or any other statistics.

6.We are strongly concerned about the rapidly increasing transphobia some of our members have been experiencing for the first time in many years as a result of the intensive media activity of the ‘transgender activists’ successfully persuading some members of the public that ‘gender dysphoria’ doesn’t exist, that crossdressers and transsexuals are all the same under ‘transgender umbrella’, etc. Unlike the genuine transsexuals who have spent their entire lives trying to seamlessly integrate in the society without drawing unnecessary attention, seeking confrontation or gaining unfavourable reputation, many modern ‘trans activists’ see no other purpose to their lives than to earn petty political capital by confronting the entire world and demanding it to change and submit to them immediately.
Transsexuals, by their very definition, aren’t political activists and until recently tried to avoid any confrontation even with the ‘trans activists’. But that was never a silent permission to make statements or demand any special rights on our behalf.

7.We don’t oppose anyone’s personal right to explore or express themselves and believe that further equality for any such individuals may be eventually achieved by the legislators. But we equally believe that no rights of any group should be treated as superior to any other group, no hard won rights of any group should be allowed to be hijacked or appropriated along with the group’s specific name and terminology, and that the society in general should not be allowed to be made a victim of the ‘loudest’ ‘social activists’ imposing on everyone else their new rules and definitions. Men and women, and even transsexuals, were here well before those calling themselves today ‘transgender’. And none of us, no matter how outdated, archaic or ‘cis’ we may seem to you, are leaving. Gender expressionists (‘transgender’) would have to learn to live with us and to respect our rights before their rights are accepted in any form. That’s why everything has to be debated, not imposed on the unaware public. And all rights have to accommodate and make sensible allowances for the rights of the other groups you co-exist with. One of them is us – the transsexuals. We know we don’t speak on behalf of all medically transitioned people, but our number is growing daily as more and more of us can no longer keep silent while being erased. We hope to hear from more transsexual women who share our concerns. We have a secret facebook group to which you may be added - a safe space full of understanding transsexuals and a respectful discussion of our present predicament. ~ THE END

Mamaryllis Thu 16-Aug-18 04:23:05

I just saw it. Fb link on twitter worked fine for me - no security warning. It’s a very new fb page - no real posts yet, just the transcript of the twitter thread.

FlippinFumin Thu 16-Aug-18 07:34:15

The further I read the bigger my smile. Really pleased to see that more people are seeing the TRA for what they really are. And being prepared to speak out.

OnThisHill Thu 16-Aug-18 08:17:04

Thanks Apollo - wow, it really is a long thread.
I've posted it in mewe - some may have seen, Miranda Y is in there but hasn't said if she is involved.
I'm hopeful.
I see a lot of women on twitter saying they DGAF about being called 'transphobic and so fucking what, when called out for thought crimes.
I think twitter being used to threaten women is losing its power, women (and men) are finding other ways to connect .... All in all a pretty positive vibe now ?
Also, the word is getting out - I'm off to Essex to radicalise my huge family! And their friends, and their friends.
We have #stickers!!!

Writersblock2 Thu 16-Aug-18 08:29:16

It’s a great thread and we are all trying to retweet it.

ShotsFired Thu 16-Aug-18 08:41:28

Good tweets, well written and coherent. It's about time this sort of clear statement was made in public and I am pleased it has been done so.

Hopefully it means the wider world will start to notice.

sociopathsunited Thu 16-Aug-18 08:44:06

This is beautifully put. This group should be frightened. They're potentially the biggest losers, as if things go badly and the gates between women and men are closed again, which side of them will they be put on? I'm really scared on their behalf.

tsonlyme Thu 16-Aug-18 08:46:55

This is marvellous, great stuff.

I bet they don’t get half the flak that GC natal women would get for the same thing.

TransplantsArePlants Thu 16-Aug-18 08:48:21

Excellent. They are our allies. Their message needs to get out there as I really believe that the general public is very ignorant about what 'trans' people are. I know that all RL discussions I've had rest on this assumption.

WibblePod Thu 16-Aug-18 08:54:41

Fantastic. As others have said, these are the people who are most at risk of actual transphobia and the current lot of trans activists are hurting them as much as they are women.
Happy to stand beside them and support them with this.

stillathing Thu 16-Aug-18 09:19:19

this is great.

message to lurking TRAs... note how this group is able to express its needs and rights whilst recognising and respecting the needs and rights of another vulnerable group? note how they are able to do this despite the fact their dysphoria may make it genuinely painful to admit they are a discrete group from natal women?

sure there will always have been narcissists but collaborative, caring, listening attitudes like this are how a society gets ahead and grows and cares for its citizens.

TheCountryGirl Thu 16-Aug-18 09:25:05

What a brilliant message and we are definitely allies. I am so glad they are speaking out.

mansplain111 Thu 16-Aug-18 09:26:12

❤️ that Post.

Thank you, whoever wrote that. We are on the same side.

drradfem Thu 16-Aug-18 09:29:57

The current law comprises women. If they cared about that they would be fighting against existing laws, not just trying to stop self ID

scepticalwoman Thu 16-Aug-18 09:30:38

This takes courage - and it's good to hear transsexual voices being added to the few lone ones.

Everyone is so frightened of the TRAs. Their threats, their violence, their baseball bats, the masked men, the repeated and consistent attacks on people's jobs, their careers. I keep thinking that someone in those well funded trans organisations will realise that this has to stop but no... on they go, fuelling and encouraging the vile behaviour. The only positive is that it's all evidence. Every time I speak to someone sceptical, I only have to point them in the direction of the violence, the exhibitions, the threats and they almost screech to a halt in horror at what they are reading.

Thank you to all those who are raising their heads and speaking out in public.

longtimelurkingtrans Thu 16-Aug-18 09:39:12

Fantastic smile . I'm delighted you found and posted that link, I'm hoping with, blogs like this the real trans voice can be heard and we can start to undo any damage done by the ones I cannot mention for fear of deletion.

Ereshkigal Thu 16-Aug-18 09:43:00

Buckle up its going to get nasty as the anti woman genderists start to feel their power and influence ebbing away.

BlytheByName Thu 16-Aug-18 10:09:14

So very heartening to read.

silentcrow Thu 16-Aug-18 10:22:18

Interesting development. A flick through the responses shows at least one big media agency looking to do a feature (not the beeb, ahahaha).

ShirleyPhallus Thu 16-Aug-18 10:26:59

Oh my god I love this

It’s every thought I’ve had about this whole nonsense business wrapped in to one and eloquently argued for me

Feel like this should be posted on the main boards rather than feminism so other posters can see what the issues are - not just the “we hate trans” message that some people seem to think

theOtherPamAyres Thu 16-Aug-18 10:41:55

I really hope that these voices are heard in the formal consultation.

I know that I've learnt a lot from @onthishill - particularly the rebuttal of the statment that the Gender Recognition Act "isn't working". Their insight, knowledge and experience drives a coach and horses through that unsubstantiated assertion.

It's not just self-id. It's more about redefining 'gender reassignment' as a protected characteristic in the Equality Act. There needs to be gatekeeping and safeguarding to exclude chancers.

mirandayardley Thu 16-Aug-18 10:42:37

It remains to be seen whether this group stand for anything different. They could have specifically identified and condemned the use of ‘TERF’ and the attack on female homosexuality; if they’re that concerned about respecting female culture, spaces and the lives of women, I’d look for an explicit distancing from the use of ‘lesbian’, ‘mother’ and ‘woman’. Unfortunately many of ‘the good trans’ still can’t bring themselves to this more evolved point.

Remember TSRainCrew? Tried to sell themselves as the ‘good trans’ and made similar arguments about cultural distinction. Yet in reality their spokespeople ended up being just as big dicks as the gendersists they criticised.

If they’re going to be different, they actually have to be different. Else this is just another attempt to claim a higher spot on the validity hierarchy.

SimonBridges Thu 16-Aug-18 11:24:51

I saw that today.
I notice the first reply is someone suggesting this was actually posted by a TERF pretending to be trans.

heresyandwitchcraft Thu 16-Aug-18 11:27:10

miranda the very sight of you posting on MN has made my day. As usual, you make excellent points. I am so thankful for your courage and hard work in this whole debate. (And I miss you on Twitter.)

ZuttZeVootEeVro Thu 16-Aug-18 12:41:59

If they’re going to be different, they actually have to be different. Else this is just another attempt to claim a higher spot on the validity hierarchy.

This. In fact I agree with all of your post miranda.

Starkstaring Thu 16-Aug-18 12:58:15

Great post. Leave the GRA as it is.

Now let's protect anyone whose gender expression is outside societal norms from discrimination bullying, harassment and violence.

OnThisHill Thu 16-Aug-18 14:47:15

HI. Thank you Miranda for your comments. I do agree with you, oh God, had forgotten about the short-lived but toxic TSRainCrew blush

It would've been great if this post had gone a little further, but it is a start....
Of course it's not purely altruistic but I think we all see (and some for a very long time) where the TRA have been heading and actually who has the most to lose.

For women, there's safety in numbers at least.

Miranda, you are sorely missed on twitter, although I doubt you miss IT!

Let's see how things pan out, but I really do believe the tide is turning....? Am I being too optimistic? (I did say this a year ago, confidently proclaiming to all who would listen! Oh no, I said, SelfID will never happen. We'll see. I still think it was a Tory plot to make Labour look really stupid but they're doing that all by themselves).

LangCleg Thu 16-Aug-18 15:52:08

I don't see why transsexuals shouldn't organise and create a distinction between themselves and the rights they've gained/want and the extremist anti-woman activists and their demands.

But I also agree with Miranda. This post isn't a feminist positioning, nor does it contain anything but the most scant reference to women's rights, and it certainly doesn't take time to condemn the toxic environment that has been created for women.

That's fine - no group should feel obliged to centre another group. But let's not fall over ourselves in gratitude. That statement wasn't about us or for us.

SwearyG Thu 16-Aug-18 16:18:35

Looks like the twitter account is suspended already. Either the mass reporters got busy or it was too good to be true. Didn't take long, either way.

Melamin Thu 16-Aug-18 16:22:21

That one, and another tweeter saying they were aware of Jess's predatory behaviour. My twitter feed is looking a bit like swiss cheese.

Mamaryllis Thu 16-Aug-18 16:39:35

Is the fb page still there?

MsMcWoodle Thu 16-Aug-18 16:48:58

I'm glad we have the text of it here.

SimonBridges Thu 16-Aug-18 17:04:38

It’s been suspended? On what grounds?

Melamin Thu 16-Aug-18 17:09:06

There is a threadreader.

ElenOfTheWays Thu 16-Aug-18 17:11:17

It’s been suspended? On what grounds?

Some TRA's didn't like it?

Datun Thu 16-Aug-18 17:33:38

Suspended? Oh good lord. These people have absolutely no marketing skills whatsoever. Shutting down an account like that is merely drawing attention to it elsewhere!!!

AppleBlossomTimeNow Thu 16-Aug-18 17:43:32

If suspended, that is unreal.

mirandayardley Thu 16-Aug-18 17:46:38

I think the account deactivated.

Hulo Thu 16-Aug-18 17:50:49

I'm following one of the trans women who are a part of it and I've asked her what's happened.

I suspect there has been an orchestrated campaign. I've seen at least one TRA stating it's a TERF front and linked to 4chan

WhatTheWatersShowedMe Thu 16-Aug-18 17:57:02

Yeah, cos radical feminists just love hanging out on 4chan.

SimonBridges Thu 16-Aug-18 18:17:23

Why does everything get blamed on 4Chan?

Ereshkigal Thu 16-Aug-18 18:19:47

Because these idiots are extremely unimaginative.

heresyandwitchcraft Thu 16-Aug-18 19:18:18

WTF? If this was some elaborate prank, then that's a sh*t move. If it was a genuine group of transsexuals who either got spooked or booted off, then that's actually worse... Urgh.

ItsAllGoingToBeFine Thu 16-Aug-18 19:27:45

And now a new fake account set up to discredit <sigh>

OnThisHill Thu 16-Aug-18 19:43:39

Once again I have been taken in. sad
So gullible!

ItsAllGoingToBeFine Thu 16-Aug-18 19:49:08

No, sorry I phrased that badly. A new account has been set up pretending to be the old one, but tweeting some properly transphobic things.

ShotsFired Thu 16-Aug-18 20:02:54

@SimonBridges Why does everything get blamed on 4Chan?

Because that sort of site is where aggressive, misogynistic men would go.

SimonBridges Thu 16-Aug-18 20:08:42

Well yes, but they don’t do everything. They get the blame/credit for far to much.

Moominfan Thu 16-Aug-18 20:11:19

Blocked off there twitter on various terf lists

Hulo Thu 16-Aug-18 20:26:10

Update: they had to change their account. They're back up here

heresyandwitchcraft Thu 16-Aug-18 20:30:07


That seems to be the "fake" account, which bears absolutely no resemblance to the original. There are some truly troublesome statements on that timeline.

For anyone who is blocked here is their current timeline

@ ts_voices

A groups of transsexuals with medically diagnosed medical gender dysphoria who receive medical treatment for our medical medical MEDICAL MEDICAL

This is their opening thread with 3 Likes (Hetty Spoon, Dr Adrian Harrop, Nicola Jayne)

We are a group of transsexual women from all walks of life who were diagnosed with the rare acute forms of gender dysphoria and treated in accordance with the modern medical science. #tsvoices

We have come together to express our concerns related to self ID and the trans activist movement

We see ourselves as supportive to women. But not all women. The women who include trans people and believe that trans people’s identities are legitimate are not our friends.

We only support women who see transsexuals as deranged males to be pitied. We only support women who kind of hate us.

But also men. We support men who hate us, and men who only support women who agree with them about how fucked up trans people are.

Basically, if you kind of hate trans people...we support you!

And if you are “transgender” but have not had all the medicine like us, just...shhhh. We are talking now.

Melamin Thu 16-Aug-18 20:36:35

That is sad.

Melamin Thu 16-Aug-18 20:40:12

I have this on my timeline. It is better.

Melamin Thu 16-Aug-18 20:41:47

Transsexual Voices Matter‏ @tsvoices · 10m10 minutes ago

 More

There were numerous attempts today to hack our account by the trans activists. Pls be aware that @ts_voices is a fake mock account created to ridicule our cause. Pls don’t follow and be careful

LighthouseSouth Thu 16-Aug-18 20:47:51

I find it a bit strange that they have already said they've got to disable the Twitter and Facebook to sort themselves out a bit more and tidy up the statements

who would put the info out there with the plan of taking it down?

that is actually on their page, not the fake copies

I would think it's possibly another way to collect data?

Hulo Thu 16-Aug-18 20:49:29

Ah yes, wow this is getting so bad.

The latest tweets from the proper account

'There were numerous attempts today to hack our account by the trans activists. Pls be aware that @ts_voices is a fake mock account created to ridicule our cause. Pls don’t follow and be careful.'

'Please also be aware that this twitter account and Facebook page will be disabled in the coming days to allow us resolve internal issues and prepare and more sound statement.'

Melamin Thu 16-Aug-18 20:52:39

Yes - they have a lot of follows. I will hold off.

Ereshkigal Thu 16-Aug-18 20:54:45

Brilliant video by Lisa Muggeridge which absolutely nails it for me. They have acknowledged it and conceded the points she makes.

Ereshkigal Thu 16-Aug-18 20:58:25

And here is the chillingly prescient piece she wrote a couple of years ago:

LighthouseSouth Thu 16-Aug-18 21:02:39

oh they joined in December 2013

and the account is "going to sleep" already?

very odd.

Melamin Thu 16-Aug-18 21:28:18

It seems to have gone down again hmm

R0wantrees Thu 16-Aug-18 21:32:40

I noticed India Willoughby & Caitlin Jenna had been tagged into the latest thread... hmm

R0wantrees Thu 16-Aug-18 21:34:32

Do read Lisa Muggeridge's article that Ereshkigal has linked. It is as she says, chillingly prescient.

Melamin Thu 16-Aug-18 21:48:04

Powerful articles, and powerful video.

heresyandwitchcraft Thu 16-Aug-18 21:59:07

Thanks Ereshkigal
I've added threads on Lisa to the FAQs

Ereshkigal Thu 16-Aug-18 22:11:37

Brilliant star

fractalplimsoll Thu 16-Aug-18 23:51:31

I have just watched Lisa M's video and, wow she is so spot on and eloquently blunt.

Some people may have seen my posts under this username about the MH condition Dissociative Identity Disorder (DID), formerly Multiple Personality Disorder, and Lisa, as well as ebing spot on about the shortcomings of today's statement, has got to the heart of what I was clumsily trying to say.

That some people out there have this very unwell, mentally disordered thinking, from a variety of MH conditions, and in many ways the psycholgical device of transition that Lisa talks about as working for most transsexuals to manage their internal distress is not working for some people, and that after all this is played out, we will see a backlash, and suffer from not haivng diagnosed and treated these MH condtions.

I am afraid of the backlash for people with DID (which is caused by severe child abuse) and similar MH condtions, as well as the risk that their condtion will also become trivialised and at the same time even further twisted and demonised than in film and some media portrayals.

Because they do suffer and do have disordered thinking, and are not necessarily at all abusive to anyone except themselves, but some people are clearly mentally deranged and disorder and are real risk and that for all our sakes, MH disorder behaviour does need to be recognised, diagnosed and treated. As does narcissism. Narcissism can be a feature of some parts in a DID person. We can still draw boundaries and condemn the behaviour without condemning a whole unwell person, and have some hope to resolve their disordered thinking whilst balancing that hope with keeping the world safe.

One hope that has been dawning on me slowly and more so after listening to Lisa, is that maybe, eventully, when this narcisstic raging disordered bubble has played out as Lisa says, and we women have been forced to draw our all of our boundaries and stand up for them, silence is acquiesence as Lisa says, maybe we will have finally revealed the whole truth about narcissim and disordered and abusive behaviour and the way that certain types of people (men and misogyny) have shaped our world and economies almost as if we are part of one big male dominated personality disordered organism, and that in the end if we persist we will have shone the light on it all so brightly that it will break the cycle.

Perhaps rather than feel disheartened and fearful, that this that is happening now and on such a grand world scale withTwitter and FB etc is a vital and inevitable part of the abuse whackamole, as was Jimmy Saville, and that maybe actually this fight is a good sign that we are dealing with the worst of human psychology and pathology and are getting to the heart of the matter.

I don't know, maybe what I am trying to say is that this is the hardest part of society's psychological therapy if you like - the raw exposing dark truth of the raging harmed and harming that must be unleashed before the healing and progress can start. (Sadly not played out in a safe controlled therapeutic space however...) And that in the end that scales will fall as never before.

I don't want to sound woo as I am not! Just thought (hoped) that actually maybe this is not a failure and a set back, but actually a sign of progress.

Thank you Lisa.

R0wantrees Fri 17-Aug-18 09:03:22

Lisa Muggeridge has a recorded a number of videos, all worth watching:

Details of her 'Correcting a Blindspot' meetings in Leeds here:

Popchyk Fri 17-Aug-18 09:53:37

Can't see the Twitter thread.

Has the account been suspended because of, and I'm guessing here, transphobia?

R0wantrees Fri 17-Aug-18 09:56:55

I think the account commented yesterday that it would shortly be taken down to resolve some things.

SwearyG Fri 17-Aug-18 09:57:13

They said yesterday they would take down the account for a few days to sort out some stuff behind the scenes (seems odd to me, why not do that before you launch).

I don’t buy it yet. It all seems too convenient. The “perfect”statement, the account going offline, the troll account (with the usual followers), the account popping back up.

Popchyk Fri 17-Aug-18 09:59:00

Oh okay.

Will wait until it is back up.

terryleather Fri 17-Aug-18 10:13:04

Once again Lisa so clearly analyses and nails it - that video is spot on, thanks for sharing!

Hulo Fri 17-Aug-18 14:35:15

It's getting really weird. The first account is still down but the fake account is now stalking people who are discussing it and tweeting at them.

Unfortunately for the fakers, one of their tweets has been liked by our friend Dr Adrian which has blown their cover a bit. And just seen - Jess Bradley is following it too along with a load of other TRAs.

The faker account is also following a lot of GC and radfem twitter accounts too. How can it claim to be honest when it is so obviously mimicking the first one that was set up by GC TS?

Womaningreen Fri 17-Aug-18 15:29:54

my guess is the faker account thinks it's being satirical? Though I'm not sure.

everything is very surreal confused

mirandayardley Fri 17-Aug-18 18:48:17

My take on the Transsexual Voices Matter fiasco.

R0wantrees Fri 17-Aug-18 19:13:07

What happened with the TSRainCrew?

mirandayardley Fri 17-Aug-18 20:29:31

It died a death for exactly the same reasons as above.

Oldstyle Fri 17-Aug-18 20:35:28

Huge respect to you Miranda; you’ve been actively involved in this way longer than I have and it's entirely possible that a) I’m being naïve and/or b) I'll end up feeling as you do about the TS Voices statement but...

Writing for public consumption is difficult at the best of times. Writing when people on all sides (and none) are ever ready to go on the attack and when you have skin in the game is almost impossible. Something is omitted that one reader thinks is essential, something is included that another considers an appalling distraction, words become 'literal violence', grammatical errors are proof of stupidity, whataboutery responses suffocate the central argument and distort the original intention. And we are all left more angry, more distressed, and less able to acknowledge each other’s vantage point or simple humanity.

If the TSV statement is read for what it actually does say, and with a presumption of integrity, I think that the OP is entitled to her sense of hope. The group explicitly acknowledge that ‘safety would be compromised’ by self-ID and by men’s ‘demands of access to female only spaces, their frequently demonstrated express misogyny, disrespect for the biological needs and specific rights of young girls, mothers, lesbians and many other, traditionally, female only, social groups.’ They also differentiate between ‘women’ and ‘transsexuals’ and state their objection to ‘any “trans rights” encroaching and gradually erasing women’s rights’. Of course the statement is written from a transsexual vantage point and mostly deals with their concerns. That is entirely legitimate; they, as we, are threatened by trans ideology. But there is an explicit intent to hear and understand women’s concerns and to find common ground.

Their statement has lifted me.

My hope is that, rather than dismissing them as ‘just silly’, ‘whining’ or ‘ridiculous’ we might start with an assumption of sincerity and an acceptance that there is indeed a common enemy and we are stronger together.

Oldstyle Fri 17-Aug-18 20:51:44

PS and I've just checked out their (genuine) webpage which acknowledges the omissions and 'errors' and explains that they are rewriting to take account of these. So I'm going to go ahead and appreciate them fulsomely. Thanks TSVs flowers flowers flowers

mirandayardley Fri 17-Aug-18 21:29:51

If you actually read my post, I’m less concerned with their statement rather more concerned with the pretty blatant male chauvinism in their interactions and that given this group includes men who describe themselves as ‘mother’ or ‘lesbian’ it has no moral authority.

Oldstyle Fri 17-Aug-18 21:41:59

Sorry - haven't been able to access the interactions, either directly or via your post. For some reason the images turn into symbols when I try to enlarge them. And I'm not sure how to find out who is in the group so I can't assess moral authority on any basis other than the actual statement.
Could we agree about the group statement in its own right even if the interactions (presumably from just one of the group) are inappropriate? Or does the latter cancel out the former in your view?

TallulahWaitingInTheRain Fri 17-Aug-18 21:54:14

What Miranda said

I mean I think it's really good that different groups who are all experiencing forms of appropriation by the same problematic ideology speak up because reining in that ideology is in all our interests. But that doesn't mean I have to agree with or accommodate the ideologies of those different groups either.

mirandayardley Fri 17-Aug-18 21:56:16

My point is, if you’re going to claim to be different, you actually have to be different. And they are claiming they are different to TRAs, because gender dysphoria, yet they use the same reversals etc and members claim ‘woman’, ‘lesbian’ and ‘mother’. They have no authority. They are rank and file transgender activists.

My post provided this group with a solution I know they will not buy into, because they’re hypocrites.

Melamin Fri 17-Aug-18 22:08:48

Thanks. This all gets confusing and it is good to hear from people with clear thoughts.

I did not like the use of the term 'reasonable women'. It smacks of a hierarchy of value judgement. They can't pick and choose, they must take the rough with the smooth. Women are what they are.

mirandayardley Fri 17-Aug-18 22:14:43

Like I said, the account’s responses are male chauvinism. Nothing new here.

R0wantrees Fri 17-Aug-18 22:18:23

I did not like the use of the term 'reasonable women'. It smacks of a hierarchy of value judgement.

cf India Willoughby's comment in her Pink News article April 2018 ;
"Mumsnet’s reputation for transphobia is fully deserved. Hardliners openly strategise ways to make life tougher for trans people: Passengers warned not to travel on sleeper trains because they might end up in the same sleeping berth as a woman who’s trans. Support gathered to stop trans women being allowed on Labour’s all-women shortlists. National meeting organised where they can clap and cheer their hatred.

It’s all very similar to the way the National Front used to operate.

I’m sure most people who use the site are decent folk. They want nothing to do with the rabid mouth-frothing going on by so-called “feminists.”

And I say so-called “feminists” quite deliberately. It’s the point which is paralysing anyone doing anything about the situation. Because these radical groups are hiding under the “feminist” banner, Government and other institutions are reluctant to question them. They don’t want to be perceived as attacking “women’s rights.” (continues)

TallulahWaitingInTheRain Fri 17-Aug-18 22:21:18

The situation where you live with people being a bit of a dick because at least they're not a full-on raving misogynist arsehole is one that is very familiar to me and I imagine most women.

Perhaps a lot of us are a bit too habituated to it

KataraJean Fri 17-Aug-18 22:27:37

I liked that blog post Miranda

Melamin Sat 18-Aug-18 10:38:06

Lisa's video was absolutely brilliant. I have looked at a few more. I have read and looked at so many things and know so much of what is going on, but she has put it into a context.

I feel so much more confident of what I know now.

We need to get those stickers out there and the links to the websites.

Ereshkigal Sat 18-Aug-18 10:40:43

My point is, if you’re going to claim to be different, you actually have to be different. And they are claiming they are different to TRAs, because gender dysphoria, yet they use the same reversals etc and members claim ‘woman’, ‘lesbian’ and ‘mother’. They have no authority. They are rank and file transgender activists.

YY Miranda. I was clutching at straws to see if they would do anything differently.

Ereshkigal Sat 18-Aug-18 10:48:11

I did not like the use of the term 'reasonable women'. It smacks of a hierarchy of value judgement. They can't pick and choose, they must take the rough with the smooth. Women are what they are.

Exactly this.

HotRocker Sat 18-Aug-18 11:40:28

Exactly, and what is a reasonable woman? Who gets to decide who is a reasonable woman?

sociopathsunited Sat 18-Aug-18 11:42:02

Reasonable women = "be a good girl"

Fuck that.

cyberwanderlust Sat 18-Aug-18 15:08:07

I'm the woman that talked to @tsvoices on the 16th of August from via my @gendercritical Twitter account.

When I explicitly asked them to denounce the TRA's violence against women, they said the following:

"We condemn all forms of violence. Male violence ESPECIALLY as we encounter it MORE OFTEN. Transgender violence as it may appear to be on our behalf too. Radfems VERBAL ABUSE OF THEIR ALLIES too."

Tell me again why should any woman take this bullshit?
Like, what violence do you experience from females IRL?
Like, female violence is "radfems abusing their allies"?

They're idiots. The whole bunch of them and their accounts are not worth of our time. If you listen what Lisa M had to say about it - you're gonna figure that out too.

Printscreens of the active accounts that derailed lots of women (and still do) on Twitter are in the attachment.

KataraJean Sat 18-Aug-18 16:57:21

I have never seen any feminist abuse of either their allies or indeed others and I have been following this since Conway Hall refused to host a rad fem conference in 2012. The idea that there is abuse on both sides is pernicious nonsense. To disagree, and even to disagree passionately and viscerally, is not to abuse as long as no-one is silenced. It is the trans allies and trans advocacy groups who are seeking to silence, bully and intimidate.

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