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Part 2: Israeli-Palestinian conflict

(972 Posts)
AndHarry Thu 17-Jul-14 11:50:51

Starting a new thread as the original is almost full.

The original thread is here. It was started on 1st July after three Israeli boys were found murdered, before the murder of the Palestinian boy and the resumption of sustained rocket attacks and Operation Protective edge.

There are lots of excellent posts and links in the original thread showcasing a variety of views. The main consensus was that there is fault on both sides. We also considered various options for people on both sides of the conflict to work towards a lasting peace.

Yruapita Sun 20-Jul-14 23:30:26

peoplepleaser. I am so so sorry for your loss. I am at a loss as to what to say. We have cried for the Palestinians for years, yet nobody has granted them the justice they so much deserve. When they rise themselves, they get called terrorists. Well, no more!

Israel does not have a monopoly on victim status and suffering. Especially when it is the aggressor. It will be held to account one day. And that is what Netanyahu doesn not want.

The wonderful wonderful Dr Gilbert, his letter is soul destroying. I expected more from Obama. Sadly,he didnt deliver. As far as i am concerned, he could have stopped the genocide too. He is also culpable.

How can we all, collectively make a difference - shine, how can we make the government stop arms sales to Israel?

babbas Sun 20-Jul-14 23:36:51

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

justasecond Sun 20-Jul-14 23:37:44

That letter from Dr Gillbert is so moving. What an amazing, brave human being.

Yruapita Sun 20-Jul-14 23:48:26

Signed the petitions and a few more while i was at it.

I noticed that this e petition hasnt had that many signatures - please sign if you agree.

runes Sun 20-Jul-14 23:49:36

babbas That's a satirical website, thankfully. What an irresponsible way to start rumours. I mean them not you. It's difficult enough to try to get at the truth without that kind of crap being thrown in the mix.

babbas Sun 20-Jul-14 23:55:22

Apologies for that link everyone. I'll ask for it to be removed. I didn't realise it was a satirical website.

Yruapita Sun 20-Jul-14 23:55:41

13 Israeli soldiers dead - 1 captured. No statement about captured soldier from Israel. So unsure whether its true.

Yruapita Sun 20-Jul-14 23:56:18

Around 100 Palestinians died today.

ShineSmile Sun 20-Jul-14 23:56:20

I wonder how many 'supporters of Israel' on this thread are actually from this Israeli social media "war room"

donnie Mon 21-Jul-14 08:03:08

Just reading the online Guardian and I feel I may be moving towards the conclusion that Israel wants to obliterate the Palestinians from the world map.

Does that expression sound familiar? resonate? If anyone disagrees, please supply proof that Bibi is keen on securing peace and that he is not a racist war monger.

crescentmoon Mon 21-Jul-14 08:36:57

Its a grab for Gaza's natural resources. Sharon didn't realise when Israel dismantled the illegal settlements in 2005 in gaza that there was such huge deposits of natural gas off Gazas coast. Since it was discovered that Gazas territory has 1.4 trillion cubic feet of gas the idea of a sovereign Palestinian state became dead. This is netanyahu's 4billion dollar grab for Gazas gas, if there are no civilians there then all the better.

AndHarry Mon 21-Jul-14 08:53:11

I have some questions people on this thread might he able to help with:

- in 2009 the IDF used white phosphorous in Gaza. Was this investigated at international level and what was the outcome?
- is it true that Israel is supplying and paying for construction projects, food, water and medicines in Gaza?

donnie Mon 21-Jul-14 09:34:51

Thanks for that link crescentmoon - it explains everything. If it's true then at least we know the Israeli govt's true motives.

donnie Mon 21-Jul-14 09:35:58

Crescentmoon I am technically useless and can't even manage links but I wish you would put that link onto twitter etc.

donnie Mon 21-Jul-14 09:56:34

AndHarry according to the Harriet Sherwood article in the Guardian online I just read, the IDF eventually admitted using white phos in Gaza, having previously denied it. They are also using flechette shells which are basically an updated version of nail bombs.

donnie Mon 21-Jul-14 10:09:20

The article states that the IDF has responded to a legal challenge to the use of white phos by saying it will "avoid using it in built up areas" with "two narrow exceptions". The "two narrow exceptions" are not allowed to be disclosed.

What do people think these are? I know what I think they are.

ColgateSmile Mon 21-Jul-14 10:11:20

YY there has been lots of talk of Israel over the last few days that Israel is using fleshette shells. From what I can understand they are not illegal under international law but B'Tselem has stated that it is illegal to use them in Gaza. More info from the Guardian:

ColgateSmile Mon 21-Jul-14 10:18:31

Does that mean that Israel may use white phosphorus again then?

I have heard rumours that white suphur is being used, does anyone know anything about this?

donnie Mon 21-Jul-14 10:47:20

Thanks Colgate that was the article I was reading. Wish I could do links!

TheHoneyBadger Mon 21-Jul-14 10:49:57

i just want to weep or scream. i feel sick at the people in power in this world.

fwiw i prayed too last night and i haven't in a long time. i sat on the other side of a field i've walked in for years that is about to be built all over and watched the sunset and how beautiful it was and how much peace and perfection we have in this world and yet how much shit is being made of it. the people who do this stuff must be monsters. to value life and land and peace and plain decency so little and to constantly make the choices that destroy for the sake of money or power....

so not so much a 'prayer' but a real sense of connection with what is and is meant to be and should be and a deep grief for what is being done instead, especially in gaza right now.

no help to anyone of course. this is man made shit and if anyone can actually think this is what G_d, Allah, Jesus, any intelligent loving being would want they must be psychotic and in need of serious medication before being let lose in the world again.

AndHarry Mon 21-Jul-14 12:26:03

Ok so the IDF changed their story on phosphorous and rewrote their policy for using it. Thanks for the links.

I read the sources quoted in The Ecologist differently to the writer. Moshe Ya'alon's comments were purely focused on the threat of revenues from gas sales going straight to fund anti-Israeli militants rather than benefitting the Palestinian people in terms of economic stability. I didn't see anything in his comments to suggest that Israel is prosecuting a military campaign to get hold of this gas for its own ends.

TheHoneyBadger Mon 21-Jul-14 12:32:10

LOOSE! can't believe i wrote lose.

AndHarry Mon 21-Jul-14 12:55:15

We'll forgive you this once.

crescentmoon Mon 21-Jul-14 13:10:34

Except that Hamas had already stepped down from power and it was now the pro western PA and Fatah/PLO that would be administering any funds. Sure the money would have lined a few pockets and Swiss bank accounts- Fatah as any secular Arab government does its fair amount of corruption. But it was israel's fear that they might ask a fair real world price for that gas- and that it would give the people of gaza and the West Bank energy ad economic security. That instead of Israel boycotting them they could boycott Israel. That those natives that Netanyahu regards as abject/lowly/subhuman might go onto have had better hospitals/better schools/better roads etc than his own people. That the Palestinians might use their sovereignty to and unity to trade and build economic connections with the outside world and israel's neighbours better than Israel could. That the Palestinians wouldn't have to rely on charity and be grateful for whatever scraps thrown from the table but might actually think to sit at the table themselves.
If the government really wanted to isolate and minimise Hamas it could have shown gaza that when Hamas left life would improve- but life got worse.killing people/bombing homes/schools/solar farms/refugee centres. Will that make the Palestinian civilian population go politically left or politically right? If you see yur children/grandchildren bombed to smithereens will that turn you moderate or extremist? Become politically quiescent or politically militant?

AndHarry Mon 21-Jul-14 13:16:58

The quotes where he was talking about the misuse of gas revenues were from 2007.

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