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Invited to a "hearing" regarding my conduct

93 replies

Ronaldinhio · 05/01/2010 12:29

I have been given a number of bullet points that I am supposed to defend? but no idea of context or examples etc
Am I entitled to be supplied with this information and also the witness statements to these facts?
No idea even who my accuser/accusers are??

Help anyone if you can please!

OP posts:
Ronaldinhio · 05/01/2010 13:45

thanks so much for you help and support...I've just felt so completely under it

do I need to inform them before the hearing that I can't answer about my whereabouts without access to mail dairy etc or will that do at the hearing?

can this investigatory hearing go both ways? ie may I ask them to provide examples?

troble is I know that it's a foregone conclusion...but don't know how to raise that point

OP posts:
BigBadMummy · 05/01/2010 13:48

Sounds to me like you have grounds for suing them for Constructive Dismissal.

You dont fit their company profile anymore so they are trying to make it uncomfortable for you and orchestrate your firing or your resignation.

Take all advise given on here for outside bodies and get as much help and info as you can.

Can you take somebody with you to take notes?

SkaterGrrrrl · 05/01/2010 13:51

Jeez zounds horrific, no advice but want to wish you luck.

Ronaldinhio · 05/01/2010 13:57

hard to do...as it is an investigation they have refused solicitor
we have no union so nothing doing there

but who would i ask within work?
it's also cripplingly embarrassing as I have always prided myself on what a good clear manager I am and how staunchly fair and honest I am
it feels like a blow to the core of my system of beliefs (that sounds naff even to me)

OP posts:
MrsChemist · 05/01/2010 13:57

I agree with the posters who say contact a solicitor. They can help represent you at the hearing, and should you lose your job, they can help you file for constructive dismissal.

Also, the words "I'll be contacting my solicitor," tends to scare most companies into behaving.

MrsChemist · 05/01/2010 13:59

x-post, sorry. However, if it is an investigation that results in disciplinary action, surely it is a disciplinary hearing, and by law they have to allow you to have a union rep or a solicitor, should you want them.

EdgarAleNPie · 05/01/2010 14:00

any procedural error on their part is grounds to sue (and an automatic win for you) so get a copy of thir procedures and make sure you note any deviation from them.

body language is so open to interprettion i don't think it seriously could be taken as grounds - what is more any employee feeling that way should really have brought attention to that through normal feedback procedures, mediation etc, long before it came to disciplinary action.

Get a union rep - even if you don't like your particularly they know the procedure and may think of things you haven't considered.

i agree it is important not to resign - that could leave you in deeply awkward situation (for one thing, ineligible for Jobseekers..)

Hassled · 05/01/2010 14:01

You absolutely MUST get proper legal advice. Don't go into this without knowing EVERYTHING. Please see a solicitor with experience of employment tribunals.

StealthPolarBear · 05/01/2010 14:04

yes exactly, as i said, has this body langage been brought up in a less formal way? surely they can't just go straight to disciplinary?

Crapweasel · 05/01/2010 14:10

Please, please, please don't try to handle this alone. It's a horrible situation and you need support, both emotionally and legally, to get any kind of good outcome out of this.

Lots of good suggestions on this thread for finding support.

Ronaldinhio · 05/01/2010 14:11

it's part of the bullying and harassment claim so they can bring it up I suppose?

OP posts:
HohohoBumperlicious · 05/01/2010 14:15

Read up on constructive dismissal, IME it is quite hard to prove, it has to be a an almost instantaneous decision in response to being tipped over the edge, if you have to think about it over night it suggests things can be that bad, there needs to be a catalyst. That was the advice the union gave to DH when they started causing trouble for him, making him suspect he would have to leave.

MrsNarcissist · 05/01/2010 14:15

Are you in any way a minority? Only woman? Only white? etc. Is the company in financial difficulty and want to get rid of you without paying redundancy?

You can and should take a union person or a co worker in with you. Some employment solicitors can represent you on a no win no fee, so you could file a counter claim and say that you are being victimised....

Miggsie · 05/01/2010 14:16

You are entitled to have specific examples of any item they mention.

Vague "oh well I hear someone thought that..." is hearsay and cannot be used as grounds against you.

Will HR be at the hearing?

Do NOT resign. Go through each point with them. Do NOT accept their intepretation of any event. You can say your recollection was not that.

Ask if you are required to bring any items with you to the hearing. If you are, get this material together, if you can't inform then=m what and for what reason.

If they have specifically asked you to provide information and you cannot due to the email issue, inform them.
Request you get email etc reinstated OR to be given an archive copy of your mailbox and calendar.
If they refuse (and get it in WRITING and copy off all emails etc onto paper) then they are being unreasonable.

Get paper copies of your expenses and anything else that may be relevant.

MrsNarcissist · 05/01/2010 14:18

I worked somewhere for less than four months and a co worker/manager kept talking about anal sex(before MN!!) and I got filthy emails from his friend in another office. Anyway I complained and was then sacked, went to a solicitor and they settled out of court for a third of my salary!

EdgarAleNPie · 05/01/2010 14:19

they can bring it up, but normally if you are going for bullying you need to prove a consistent pattern. this could be done legiimately by eg going to your line manager with a concern (noted in acordance with procdure) ...then going to mediation (with HR present, again creating a paper trail) and then to disciplinary action to decide if there was any weight in it (with all previous less stern actions taken beforehand noted on paper and discussed with yourself) - that is how a company should ordinarily handle that sort of thing.
To allow them to build up a case all-in-one without any single serious allegation (eg shouting at them, swearing, hitting, rascist/sexist language) is...highly irregular.

i mean, if i told someone my boss was dismissive and had bad body language, hey'd talk to her about it, no my concerns - it would only be if there were several months of evidence built up they'd go for a disciplinary case....

CMOTdibbler · 05/01/2010 14:19

This is such a crap place to be in.

You don't need a union at work to get help from them - in DH's previous job there was no union representation, but the one appropriate to his field were super helpful when he was targeted. I'd really advise contacting them.

Regarding the ignoring thing, I'd contact people that you work with, and ask them if they would be prepared to give you a statement (anonymous or not) giving their opinion on how they find you to interact with.

You are entitled to know exactly the allegations against you, and have the same access to evidence - so in this case your electronic diary and expense reports so that you can review them.

I'd also ask for all communications to be in writing - those phone calls sound like harassment to me. And get a dicatphone (or record on your mobile) so that you have a clear copy of everything said in the meeting

OrmIrian · 05/01/2010 14:20

Appalling!

I have no advice I'm afraid but angry on your behalf!

Ronaldinhio · 05/01/2010 14:22

thanks for all your help and support

i'll let them know about the emails etc to have time to prepare
they are suggesting that for over 20 days during the year I was inexplicably absent...would someone not have mentioned this before or is it reasonable to lump all of this together?

they are also stating that i went to lunches where alcohol was consumed...this is true as I also did this with HR at one point
I don't work with machinery and this has never in all my working experience been made a point of interest in our industry
what should I say....just that?

OP posts:
Blackduck · 05/01/2010 14:23

Is flowerybeanbag around? Pretty sure she works in HR (as does llarerggub) and may have some ideas.
My father was accused of bullying - it is a hard one to prove/disprove....but it dragged on and on and he was very ill because of it. Get advice/support. Get copies of procedures etc. Agree with others pretty sure they have to give specific examples...
Also re expenses and other stuff this sounds like they are just hoping to fire a load of stuff at you in the hope something sticks. Make them deal with each issue separately.

Bessie123 · 05/01/2010 14:24

Where do you work? It used to be that you could not bring a solicitor in to an internal disciplinary hearing but this has changed following a fairly recent case with an NHS doctor that set a precedent for allowing it if the disciplinary action could jeapordise your career. I don't know that this precedent would necessarily translate to the private sector, that might be a question for your lawyer. Make sure you pick a good one from a decent firm.

You should be looking at unfair dismissal.

Bessie123 · 05/01/2010 14:29

Sorry, I meant you should be getting information on unfair dismissal, to prepare yourself

CMOTdibbler · 05/01/2010 14:31

I think that if no one has mentioned the absences before (I'm assuming you manage your own diary, and they are saying you should have told someone you were out - I'd argue that if you have put these in your work e diary and this is normal practice it can't be an issue), and unless you are specifically mentioned in your work handbook/contract that no alcohol is to be consumed, I don't think that they could make that sort of charge.

Maybe a freelance HR person like FLowery can be employed by you for a day to go through specific points and check the documentation to see if they are substantiated

RibenaBerry · 05/01/2010 14:33

Right, let's try and get this sorted!

Firstly, the right to be accompanied:

You are being invited to an investigation. There is a (minor and techy) argument about the right to be accompanied to pure investigation, but let's run with it for the moment.

You have the right to be accompanied by a colleague or a trade union official. You don't have any right to take a friend or a solicitor. However, you don't need to be in a union to take a union rep, so if your cousin or next door neighbour happens to be one, lucky you!

Next, steps pre meeting.

I would suggest that you send your employer an email indicating that you are very concerned about the letter you have received as it is so vague as to make it impossible for you to properly understand the allegations and prepare. If you think that there are particular documents you need (like calendar to respond to their request), then say that too.

At the meeting:

This is an investigation, so you don't necessarily get witness statements in advance. A genuine investigation would interview everyone involved and take their statements. If it progressed to an actual hearing then that's the stage at which you would get the statements (with the letter inviting you to the hearing).

So, at the hearing, your employer should be explaining the allegations in more detail and you should answer as best you can. If it's a vague allegation - e.g. that you use hostile body language - say something like "I don't believe that that is the case, but it's really hard for me to answer something so vague. Please could you explain what I am alleged to have done, to who and when, then I will try and give a fuller answer".

Unlike others, I wouldn't advise ever saying that you don't want to answer until you've had legal advice. It comes across a bit like the guy stopped by a policeman who suddenly goes "I want to talk to my lawyer." Instead, I would focus on practical reasons why you can't answer, or aren't happy to do so.

I would suggest that you repeatedly ask who has made the allegations (if you don't get a satisfactory answer). If they won't answer, or it's one of this group, state your concerns abou them as a group.

If you can get a colleague to go along with you, so much the better as he/she can take notes.

On the expenses and requests for dates:

I suggest that you email them and ask them whether this is part of the investigation or a separate issue. Then explain your difficulties with answering. If you want, throw in an aside about the witchhunt (although try to use very measured language).

Finally, claims:

Just so you're clear, the claim if they dismiss you is unfair dismissal. Constructive dismissal is a claim you make if you feel that you've been treated so badly you are entitled to resign and treat yourself as dismissed. It's a hard claim and I only advise that route if you are being badly treated but with no suggestion you'll be fired (e.g. sexual harassment or bullying). If you think you might be dismissed, waiting it out and claiming unfair dismissal is an easier and more straightforward route.

Hope that helps.

said · 05/01/2010 14:35

How big is your employer?