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Is anyone else an academic who has not produced enough research while having kids and is now in the s***?

753 replies

Kathyis6incheshigh · 28/05/2009 12:27

There are lots of academics on MN, just wondering if there is anyone else in my position.

Am pg with 3rd dc in 5 years. Have had hyperemesis and other problems in all 3 pgs, which on top of 2 maternity leaves means heaps of time off work. In the meantime I have completely lost research momentum and produced sod all apart from a few book reviews. I was not submitted for RAE (though fortunately my dept did very well without me so none of my colleagues are holding it against me personally.)
Every time I come back it takes me all my time to get back up to speed with teaching and admin, get on top of all the changes in my field etc, and I only ever seem to make baby steps towards producing anything before I am sick or pregnant again.
Just had uncomfortable meeting with (supportive) HoD at which she broke news to me that I am about to get a scary letter from Personnel and a process is going to start which will probably include ritual disembowelling/change to a teaching only contract if I don't get something submitted before baby is due. Which would be fine as long as the foetus behaves and sickness holds off - am only just back at work after 2 months off with HG.

Serves me right for having children, doesn't it?

OP posts:
phdlife · 07/06/2009 12:20

lionheart - I do wish you'd post anyway. Some of us are too far away to be a risk and the others... well, they kinda mostly seem to me to be being supportive, here.

Kathyis6incheshigh · 07/06/2009 13:01

Lionheart - you could always namechange and put in untrue irrelevant details to throw people off the scent, unless it is the issues themselves that are unique (which most of our problems don't seem to be!)

LOLOL @ research mentoring. In my case it's been more:
Him: I see you wrote on your last research plan that you're going to do a book. We don't have long until the next RAE, you probably won't get it done in time, wouldn't you be better doing articles?

(next meeting)
Him: Hmm, I see you're working on some articles. Given the way we think the RAE is going to turn out, you really ought to be thinking about doing a book, you know.

(and the other way round again at the next meeting.)

PhDLife - what I am thinking here is that when I am advising my students about job applications (one of our courses is vocational so we do a lot of that) one piece of advice I always give them is to apply for jobs that are better than the ones they think they are qualified for, eg if a job says 2 years experience and you have 6 months, go for it. I tell them this because IME a lot of them actually do end up getting these jobs. I wonder if the same thing applies here - you should have a go at applying for things you think you won't get because of not having enough publications, and you might end up surprising yourself. Certainly the Oxbridge research fellow type postdocs are incredibly random - I remember much discussion in the graduate common room about how on earth certain people had managed to get them when others hadn't

Also if the reason you think you haven't got enough publications for a postdoc is that various Big Cheeses have told you so, bear in mind they may be wrong. I was told countless times that I would never get an AHRB grant for MA/PhD without a first but I got both.

OP posts:
UnproductivePostdoc · 07/06/2009 15:58

Hope I can join in! Am a semi-reg but have namechanged for this thread . I'm a postdoc just back after my second maternity leave and feeling completely useless. I had bad PND after DS1 and took over 18 months off, but was lucky to find a p/t contract at a new lab with a very supportive boss. But I didn't publish anything between starting this contract and going on m/l again, I have results but need to write them up and get them published!!!

I have been blessed with two babies that are crap sleepers though and now haven't had a good night's sleep in years - my brain just isn't functioning like it used to and I'm finding it really hard to keep up intellectually, which is doing nothing for my confidence

I'm finding it really hard to get anything done when I am at work as I seem to be consumed with negative thoughts about how crap I am, so am trying to concentrate now on being more positive about things.

Reading through this thread has been immensely helpful for me, it's good to know that I'm not completely alone. I work in a very male-dominated discipline and while my departmental colleagues are generally supportive I don't really have a mentor I can talk to about this, or anyone else I know IRL having similar problems...

WRT children in universities, DS2 regularly comes into the office with me (usually just for a few minutes though) and I when DS1 was about 18mo I bf him in a SCR full of tweedy (male) academics and none of them even blinked I suspect that a lactating female in their midst was so far out of their realm of normality though that they just filtered me out of their vision... .

FouFoucault · 07/06/2009 19:12

Kathy - birthday party went well I think! What would you rather face - a lecture room full of students or seven 6-year old girls? I too am exhausted though. Glad yours went OK.

I have had a few temporary research contracts before a lectureship - for me I think it was case of being in the right place at the right time to get a lectureship after them. The problem is that often much of the publishing happens when the temp researcher's contract has finished so you don't always get your name included. Of course not everywhere does that but it can happen.

Most the women I know who are Profs (if we're taking that as the measure of success) have become that when their children were older (ie teenagers+) or started their careers straight away (ie PhD early twenties etc etc) and were therefore on a trajectory that even kids couldn't stop.

I am not sure I even want to be a Prof - which may be just as well ............

Catitainahatita · 07/06/2009 19:54

I once took DS (at about 9 months) to a seminar with me because his babysitter had had a last-minute emergency and wasn't available. It was the last class of term and very important in terms of the final exam etc. My students were lovely about it, but it was all a bit difficult as he had just mastered crawling and wanted to be everywhere and anywhere.He eventually was distracted by the proyecter light, which with the remote control he was able to turn it on and off! Needless to say we did not manage to have a 2 hour class that day.

Unproductive: sometimes I think being the only female in the department (me too!) can be a bit helpful as noone has anyone to compare you to (ie. the soul destroying remarks such as "So-and-so managed to come to all out meeting despite having 8 children") Obviuosly it can have its downside too, but still I'm trying to be positive.

skiffler · 07/06/2009 19:55

Before my series of postdocs I had a temporary lectureship post (someone had a high-profile research fellowship that paid for me to do their teaching). I was finishing off my PhD, got heavily dumped on with teaching and had no advice from anyone at all (research mentoring? what's that?!). I naively assumed that since no-one commented on things I was doing wrong that I was doing okay.

When it ended there were no permanent lectureships available at my university, so I got a postdoc in the department. When a job did come up, I was told that I didn't have enough publications to be considered. Since then, I've been on maternity leave, switched to working part-time, moved to a new postdoc when my funding ran out and been turned down for three other lectureships - all because my publication record isn't strong enough.

So my advice is to go for a postdoc position before a lectureship if you can - it should give you a chance to boost your publications and write up stuff from your PhD without trying to learn admin and teaching as well as establish your research career. If I could go back in time and give myself one piece of advice it would be not to have gone for the temporary lectureship!

skiffler · 07/06/2009 20:23

Realised that this is possibly quite specific to subject area - I imagine that postdoc positions in lab-based research teams might have less time to work on their own PhD stuff. Still getting a good few publications under their belt, though, which seems to be the name of the game in early career...

phdlife · 08/06/2009 05:23

lol at unproductive's colleagues filtering her out of their vision! And thanks for encouraging words, Kathy. Despite the relentless doomsaying from academic contacts I've been whistling my way through this particular graveyard (in between bitching and moaning about it ) on the grounds that things change, and you never do really know what's ahead...

I am finding this thread sad (so many of us being stuffed over) yet strangely comforting (least it isn't just me!)

Skiffler, your experience sounds a little like mine, too. When I thought I was close to finishing my phd (and my supervisor didn't tell me otherwise ) I took a f/t lectureship. It was the first thing I was offered and I had strong doubts way before I went there, suspecting (correctly) that it was a crap department. The "team" leader was very much of the opinion that if you wanted to do research, it should be done in your own time, and meanwhile have some more teaching. I was supposed to be finishing my phd, so was given a lighter load to get it done - this consisted of having me contribute lectures on topics I knew nothing about to every other subject on the degree so I spent all my "spare" time reading up on things I didn't even want to know about!

And the really stupid thing was, this place was 300mi from where dh lived/worked, so I only got to see him on the weekends. We missed each other dreadfully, which my "mentor" there found absolutely baffling - she was of the opinion weekends were for working, and could not understand why I wanted to spend the little time I had with dh actually, y'know, with dh. Altogether a v sad experience -- and nope, no publishing.

But - ds, dd, and dh all asleep, so I'm off to write!

nopublicationsyet · 08/06/2009 08:36

Hi Phdlife, I just wanted to say that I got a Postdoc even though I haven't got any publications (partly because I went on maternity leave straight after submitting). Wish I'd done four paper route for my Phd now, but hindsight's great isn't it. Anyway, in the interview, I was asked by a (female) member of the panel what I had been doing the previous year, and why I didn't have any publications. I think I did a sort of Goldfish impression as it very clearly said on the application that I had been on maternity leave, and in having to say it out loud for some reason I got all nervous and stammer-y like it was a terrible guilty secret! Anyway, I'm only saying that because I walked out convinced I hadn't got it, and I did. What was interesting though was that I was sort of advised to keep the maternity leave side of things a bit quiet. I wasn't really sure how to do that! But I guess the point is, it's worth trying (I gave them a VERY clear plan of my proposed publications in the application so that at least they knew I had a pipeline.)

phdlife · 08/06/2009 12:05

thanks, nopubs - very heartening! I'll probably just keep chipping away, at least until I get a better offer.

LupusinaLlamasuit · 08/06/2009 12:18

I actually think it is probably better these days NOT to try and keep the maternity leave thing quiet, but to be very open and brazen about it. For two reasons. One, because keeping quiet is just raising the bar again for the next generation, implying that yup, we can do everything and we're supposed to all do loads of research while on leave etc.. And two - more to the point - is that universities, interview panels, funding councils, even the goddamn RAE/REF is supposed to take it into account. If I were advising someone whether to mention it when being interviewed I'd suggest that you should simply state it, and if they pressed the issue, you can always remind them (after the interview if necessary) that questions relating to your childbearing status are not allowed...

LupusinaLlamasuit · 08/06/2009 12:19

is are

God, must proofread more

hermionegrangerat34 · 08/06/2009 21:51

Hi, just found this thread and I'd like to join CAWK too, please! Love the manifesto. I'm currently on maternity leave after dc3, but next year (I go back in the autumn) really has to be a big writing year for me - did bugger all last year due to pregnancy and the other half of my job (i'm half a student welfare role, half a research fellow) taking over all my time/energy. DETERMINED to carve out and keep to a research day next year, and will try to do at least 30mins writing on other days too. Off to Amazon now to buy the 'Professor as Writer' book recommended at the beginning of the thread!

zozokat · 09/06/2009 12:21

Hi all,

Hope you have room for one more I'm due with first baby this Friday, and very happy to come across this thread! I'm 6 years into a part-time (.6) permanent lectureship.

There is so much pressure to produce research/writing in my department, yet I got inundated with teaching and admin in the months before maternity leave (effectively doing extra work ahead of time) and all my research and publication plans got shunted aside? then my leave started 2 weeks ago and I kept getting emails asking me to complete various reports etc. until last week, when I refused to do the last one, I got a sarcastic retort from a fellow Lecturer ('well, I'll have to go on maternity leave next year'!) after which I disabled my uni email account in silent protest. We're a small department and I wanted to help out, I don't think they realize I'm not meant to be doing any of this.

I'm also under pressure to use my 10 'keeping in touch' days to teach an MA class over my last 3 months of leave rather than what they're meant for e.g. professional development, training, conferences. These are 10 payed days you can take over the course of your leave, does everyone else get these?

Think I'll leave it at that for now Liking the CAWK manifesto, going to draft a part-time version!

skiffler · 09/06/2009 12:34

Certainly up for a part-time CAWK manifesto, zozokat!

One of the problems working part-time, I think, is that no-one really knows what amount of work constitutes full-time, so it's impossible to judge a part-time contribution. Should the manifesto include a small 15-30 minute writing session on days off? On the one hand I think it might make it easier to write on the working days if the pattern is already set, but I'm not sure how easy it would be to find extra time - or how productive it would be...

Off to take a look at that book on Amazon - someone should be on commission here!

phdlife · 09/06/2009 12:59

at your colleague, zozokat.

actually, scratch that.

I was thinking about this while doing the washing up tonight. It seemed to me the debate with egede raises the question of what CAWK is for. If we all just want to egg each other on to success, then she seems to offer a pragmatic course. Or do we want to try and develop a new model, in which case, trying to think of ways to "succeed", with more consideration for colleagues/them that follow?

Or am I getting a wee bit too virgo-y about this?

Kathyis6incheshigh · 09/06/2009 13:07

Hi all, welcome! I don't know whether to be delighted or depressed about the number of people on here.

Zozokat, that's outrageous about you being asked to do work on mat leave! Teaching an MA course is not in the spirit of the KIT days, either. I am delighted with them as an invention as they should make it much easier to pick up work again when returning from leave, but it is not good if they are abused.

God I'm struggling at the moment. Not with the writing - that is actually going rather well - but with the return of hyperemesis after I thought I was over it. I am paranoid about looking passive-aggressive and like I'm making excuses when I keep saying to my HoD 'look, if I do too much I'll be ill' and 'If my health doesn't hold I honestly can't meet this deadline' but it's the reality I'm living with at the moment.

OP posts:
HighOnDieselAndGasoline · 09/06/2009 13:09

welcome zozokat and hermione!

zozokat - you certainly shouldn't have to use your keeping in touch days to teach an MA option - as I understand it, these are only to be used with the agreement of employer AND employee. Your department will be getting money to cover your leave, let them spend it on replacing your teaching!

Your colleagues sound pretty clueless - good plan to disable your email for the duration. There seems to be widespread ignorance of maternity legislation in academia - most people, including my colleagues, don't seem to realise that you are not actually supposed to work while on ML.

Good luck with the baby!

HighOnDieselAndGasoline · 09/06/2009 13:11

x-posts with Kathy

Kathy, so sorry to hear your hyperemesis is back - how grim. Can you get yourself signed off - surely they can't argue with a sick note?

FouFoucault · 09/06/2009 13:30

zozokat - sorry about your colleagues and the pressure. It is easy to advise people 'Just sya no' but much harder to do in practice.
Can I ask a question (feel free not to answer)? Did you take a .6 permanent position on purpose or was it what was on offer? I am asking because I sometimes (always?) seem to be struggling with f-t work since DD went to school - and am contemplating going .6 but wondering whether I will just end up with the same amount to do and less time (and pay) with which to do it.
Lupus - re the maternity leave dilemma (keep quiet or shout about it) - I ummed and ahhed for ages in my promotion app - for the reasons you say - it then raises the bar for those that come afterwards and leads people to the expectation that ML shouldn't affect anything. In the end I tried to bear in mind who would be reviewing the app (the same male dean I mentioned earlier who likes 8.30 am/ 5.30pm meetings) and just put it briefly on my CV but not in the blurb part. I'm still not sure that was the right decision though.

Kathyis6incheshigh · 09/06/2009 13:47

"Your department will be getting money to cover your leave, let them spend it on replacing your teaching!"

Sadly they don't always - sometimes academic depts are shafted by the central budgeting dept on this issue.

Which makes life tricky for management as well as the person on mat leave: her colleagues are covering her under protest from the goodness of their hearts and she comes back owing them bigtime, or feeling like she does. I think making this illegal should be added to the CAWK agenda.

Have you been involved in the discussion about covering your role, Zozokat? I was not the second time round (possibly because my then HoD was trying to be considerate and not worry me with it, I think the intention there was benign) but it can feel quite disempowering when you don't know what's going on in your absence.

Highondiesel - I'm not sick enough to not work at all (and it would depress me hugely, not to mention inconvenience colleagues and students) but if I push it too far I throw up a lot. Went to doc yesterday and got her to write a letter explaining that I am still ill and not up to the normal performance levels. Trouble with going off sick altogether is that it causes so many problems that then need sorting out when you get back. So hopefully they will take my 'well note' seriously. If not then I guess it will be a union issue.

OP posts:
zozokat · 09/06/2009 18:45

Kathy and Highondiesel Yes, KIT days aren't for teaching, I wasn't 'told' to teach but rather the idea has been bandied about (background: I teach in small, understaffed department in an area of art and design, and we have trouble finding qualified studio teachers for some topics so it is very difficult to simply say no though I might )

Foufoucault -- agree, v hard to say no to a bit of work on maternity leave! that's exactly why I kept helping out with admin beyond what was expected (until the breaking point, hah) That said, I've twice had admin duties stretched over the years to cover colleagues' maternity leave, so it is normal practice in my department to be covered by colleagues. We get replacement money, but not enough to replace the entire role. Even if we did, only staff members can realistically take on some admin duties.

To replace some of my own teaching, I had a TA that I groomed to take over a chunk of studio classes (though I know that someone else may be roped in to do some of it if this happens I'll feel as though my efforts were hijacked) Its not always easier to have a TA working with you when you are training them to replace you it is extra work But nice to have some knowledge/control about how things will go -- Kathy how annoying that you weren't even consulted the second time round!

Foufoucault, to answer your question: the job was originally f/t, I negotiated a .8 position, partly because I was still working on my PhD, partly because in my field & especially teaching studio and being into practice-based research, it is good to keep a hand in freelance work and journalism-type writing not just academic pubs. I realized very quickly that a .8 role is basically full-time with 80% pay! Total rip-off! So I requested to have my role taken to .6 after a year. This can balloon to nearly full-time on and off but remains reasonable in the summer and vacation periods -- would definitely recommend it if you can take the downsides. Where I teach, these include having to fight to fend off too much teaching (something I'm obviously not so great at) and limitations to promotions (that last one is not the case in other departments I know, but this is the culture in my department at the moment.)

phew apologies for the novel.

Is it just me or does it seem that people who gets lots of research done tend to be unreliable at admin, or a bit crap/not so hot at the teaching?? Maybe CAWK needs to include a point about strategic 'expectations management' in teaching & admin

Sorry to hear about your difficulties with hyperemesis on the job, Kathy I can imagine how it would much harder to officially tone down the workload than to stop it altogether is there a health and safety officer in your department who would be sympathetic to establishing some boundaries to your responsibilities? The same person who does the pregnancy H&S check -- would it be possible to set up a meeting with H&S person alongside your HoD say to sort out something more official?

Fennel · 09/06/2009 22:08

phdlife, I have my own model, an ongoing attempt to succeed in academia with virtually no compromise of work-life balance, location, commuting, or of green or feminist ideals.

I'll let you know in a few years if it's worked. For the moment I think it hasn't. But I do get a lot of time frolicking in fields of buttercups with my golden-haired children. . It's very buttercuppy around here.

And lupus, on the mentioning maternity leave thing, yes OF COURSE you should mention it, on the basis that do you really want to work for/with people who don't respect such things?

(Ideals/stroppy feminism before Career Success, that's my motto....)

HighOnDieselAndGasoline · 09/06/2009 22:14

Fennel - that sounds lovely. On a slight tangent, but as you mentioned green principles, might I ask what your position on flying for work is? I went through a very militant phase of saying that I would not fly to conferences, but have softened a bit lately and feel guilty about it.

HighOnDieselAndGasoline · 09/06/2009 22:15

I meant to add a after 'that sounds lovely' because it really does!

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