Is anyone else an academic who has not produced enough research while having kids and is now in the s***?

[Kathyis6incheshigh]

There are lots of academics on MN, just wondering if there is anyone else in my position.

Am pg with 3rd dc in 5 years. Have had hyperemesis and other problems in all 3 pgs, which on top of 2 maternity leaves means heaps of time off work. In the meantime I have completely lost research momentum and produced sod all apart from a few book reviews. I was not submitted for RAE (though fortunately my dept did very well without me so none of my colleagues are holding it against me personally.)
Every time I come back it takes me all my time to get back up to speed with teaching and admin, get on top of all the changes in my field etc, and I only ever seem to make baby steps towards producing anything before I am sick or pregnant again.
Just had uncomfortable meeting with (supportive) HoD at which she broke news to me that I am about to get a scary letter from Personnel and a process is going to start which will probably include ritual disembowelling/change to a teaching only contract if I don't get something submitted before baby is due. Which would be fine as long as the foetus behaves and sickness holds off - am only just back at work after 2 months off with HG.

Serves me right for having children, doesn't it?

The stupid thing is I was making progress on research - I had got a book contract based on my PhD and was getting on with that, and also had just got readers' reports back on a Reader in my subject (which was a lot of work to get ready because I had to identify the readings, but was what senior academics in my dept wanted me to do because it was needed for teaching). The idea I'm not research active is laughable, but I've been so slow lately so I don't have any substantial outputs yet.

I'm being gradually persuaded that I should talk to the union rep, because if they want to discipline me for failing to meet a target surely they should be taking into account that I've had a substantial period of sickness in the time when I was meant to be meeting it?

This isn't me, yet (was entered in last RAE, in which we did really well, thank god; had DD last year), but I fear it will be. I was never the best organised or most productive person before DD, so I doubt her arrival has magically transformed me into some kind of research monster.

Trouble is, all the women academics I know who have children are also over-achievers. & Written loads of books, some even while on ML... How? I feel like I've not even put DD down this entire year.

I believe the place that adds on study leave after ML is UCL, but I'd need to check with my mate there.

I'd like to know whether ML "counts" as a year or not, as this would speed the arrival of my next leave.

O/T: it really gets my goat that other activities are so undervalued in the current academic climate - e.g. being a good teacher . This is particularly galling, since the student satisfaction surveys routinely highlight student concerns about the quality and involvement of the teaching they receive; what they don't realise is that we are not rewarded at all (barring meaningless interal "prizes" for teaching excellence) for teaching. Ludicrous system.

Regrettably, my term of research leave happened while I was pg. I couldn't have known in advance, but, while I had an amazingly complication-free and enjoyable pregnancy, it also made me a total airhead. I sat in the library for 3 months, and got nothing done at all. I'm totally bricking it about having to write my report on what I did for my "leave".

I'm still on probation too, so cacking my pants, really.

I feel your pain.

Can I butt in with sympathy and empathy - I'm in the same position but on short term contracts so facing unemployment (or extreme underemployment) next year if something doesn't come up.

(I have 2 publications since DCs, but that's in 3 years - I only get time in university holidays when the kids are at cm's)

Of course, if I can't pay for childcare, I can't get any research time... Sometimes I feel like packing it all in and working in B&Q (or becoming a sociologist and researching problems like this) (like my mother ).

internal

Ooh, be a sociologist, Chaotica - lots of potential interviewees for you on this thread

Sympathy about your research leave Penthesileia. I lost half of mine due to pregnancy-related sickness as well - but you don't get extra to make up of course!
My wise informal mentor (the one whose maternity leave was counted as study leave 25 years ago) said 'Delay your study leave Kathy!' when I found out I was pregnant, but I didn't listen to her, foolish me.

There are some top overachievers in my dept too. I have one colleague who could probably tell me everything I need to know as she has done really well at keeping her research going while having 2 dcs and both her and her dh work full-time (as opposed to HoD whose dh is a SAHD) but one way she achieves it is by working every moment and never having time to talk to anyone - finding her for a 10 minute chat is like getting blood out of a stone.

I'd thought of researching these issues as well, chaotica. except I really, really LIKE my area (yep, even foucault.) guess it's b&q for me!

Not sure what RAE is (can anyoen explain?) but I think that if you want to retain your career (and it sounds as if you do), you need to work out the minimum acceptable amount of work you can do and submit it. Having a supportive HoD is so in your favour. Good luck.

I could explain the RAE, but I could get one of my nearly-finished papers done in that time and submit it so I won't be the one to offer. (I missed it, even though I could have taken part because I was on mat. leave and oblivious to work emails...)

I really like my area too (not foucault), but a digression into sociology wouldn't be too bad... I have a whole load of rl examples like us as well unfortunately. (I think I'd stand more chance down at B&Q though.)

I did once think of applying animal behavioural studies (well, primatology) to the behaviour of some of my peers at conferences... (But I need my referees!)

I'm so relieved (or perhaps saddened) that it isn't only me that is in this position! I finished my PhD in 2005 while breastfeeding baby born in 2004 (took 5 months leave) and started a 3 year post-doc research assistantship/fellowship immediately after working with a v. understanding Prof who let me take it at my own pace. Result: two co-authored articles, but no book, nothing published from my PhD in 4 years. Partner working abroad so am a single parent (with lots of grandparent help) for much of the year. Got a ten-month lectureship but just heard they aren't renewing my contract, and didn't even get shortlisted for a permanent job in my dept, (the teaching for which I'm already doing and have had excellent student feedback for!) because of my low research output and the fact I didn't get a first as an undergrad (despite doing well - distinction at MA level, AHRB funded PhD, post-doc - since then) or manage to secure BA funding this year.(Plus have a sneaking suspicion that time off due to a miscarriage last year and this year cos of pregnancy complications may also be counting against me in the dept). Will be out of work as of end of June. Plus, am pregnant again with baby due 21st Sept so have no chance of either getting a job or realistically, given my bovine state, writing anything sensible any time soon. Also, like the rest of you I just can't spend my evenings and weekends working when I have a kid to look after and frankly, nor do I particularly want to. My Dad is an academic and I hardly saw him as a child cos he was ALWAYS working, albeit at home. Nonetheless, am feeling v depressed at the prospect that a career I worked hard for and enjoy may well be well and truly screwed, especially cos I love teaching and it just seems to count for bugger all these days. Can someone pass the B and Q application please?

Maybe becaues I'm not in academia, it does strike me as being something worth holding onto. Long holidays, prestigious, brain work. It sounds okay to me. It sounds like it would be a shame to let it go at this stage.

Just to correct one popular misapprehension nkf, academics do not get long holidays. The students do, but we work full time and I have 30 days in my contract...

I think we need a Crap Academics with Kids support thread, no? I really do wish I'd worked out that a good mentor helps much earlier in my career. I have never done terribly well, but then I work in an mediocre university.

But it always troubles me. I'm hoping for much more productivity now littlest is nearly 2. I do wish there wasn't such a culture of bright young things and writing people off when they've over 35 in academia. I think I can do just as good work now as I could before kids.

nkf, seems to me you're missing the point - any non-teaching time, be it summer "holidays", mat leave, sundays, after-dinner, etc. - is widely regarded as writing time, ad so long as there are some who do work like that, the rest of us are expected to.

Lulpus I'm liking your CAWK support thread idea. am SO there...

CAWK! We even have an excellent acronym!

Right. Let's kick this off.

I'm going to make a commitment: anyone fancy joining me?

Now that teaching is over, and despite the fact that marking is draining me of all life force nearly over, despite the fact that external examining shortly begins, despite the CONSTANT illness of my kids [just over scarlet fever, 4 yo off ALL week last week, now 1 yo has a runny bum... ], despite the fact that I am burnt out knackered, I am going to do two things:

1. I am going to write every day, for one hour, before I do anything else. I have been my most productive doing this.

1. I am going to aim to finish the article I have been avoiding sitting on by the end of June. And submit it. Whatever.

Will you chase me please? And I will chase you?

ok

I will

1. send off finished article without any more faffing polishing
2. write... erm... 1/2hr a day (can't decide whethger thast is realistic or optimistic, will consider during dd's 2-3am waking...)

starting on 5 mins!

Phdlife, you may be right. I know lots of academics but it's not my world. The only thing I will say is that many of the women I know in academia describe what you are all going through. The difficulty of juggling babies with writing and teaching. And it did always seem as if there is a terrible early period when the struggle is at its worst but it does get easier. And then things like the long holidays come into their own. People get quicker at writing and researching. It might be worth sticking at it until the perks kick in. It seems a shame to drop something you love over a few years of hell.

stop saying 'long holidays...'!

They're really not.

I have to submit my annual leave days just like everyone else. The student vacations are filled with:

marking
meetings
module design/planning
teaching preparation
recruitment of students, including interviewing, reading admissions forms, open days, drop-in days, consultation during clearing
random, extensive bureaucracy required of us by bureaucrats
supervision of postgrads
teaching of postgrads
writing research papers
going to conferences
doing 'citizenship activities' we don't get paid for, such as reviewing articles, other people's research projects, external examining (sorry - we do get paid for that last one but it is such a pittance!)
mentoring colleagues
managing research groups
write research bids and studentship proposals
respond to whatever financial crisis or govt nonsense is passed down to us via HEFCE/research councils
attending development/training actitivies
interviewing for staff
writing reports for failing students and sitting on disciplinary panels, plagiarism hearings
writing references

wiping the arses of senior colleagues who refuse to do the 'housekeeping' activities listed above

Oh yeah, and somewhere in the middle of all that (and have missed many things off the list) we do our research and occasionally read a sentence book

The rather quaint old notion that academics just swan off to their house in France in May and don't return till October, meanwhile having big thoughts, is incredibly outdated.

lol lupus

can I just add that all the senior profs I've worked with and for, work at least that hard. 24/7.

And now I'm going back to my damn article.

Oh I know, many many good profs. Strategic leadership, mentoring, bringing in cash etc etc, on top of all the stuff listed. Many shit ones also who do not earn their humongous salary.

My main research area is this field - work-life balance, gender, flexible working etc. The academics in that field are particularly bad in not managing any sort of decent work-life balance. Ironically, though some point out that we're often drawn to researching things we can't manage.

I am getting much more fed up of academia lately, I love a lot of things about the job but I don't see a way to be a successful academic (using the traditional measures of success) without letting it take over too much of my life. In the past it did take over too much, so I ramped back and now am getting nowhere, career-wise, or very slowly, but at least my children see a lot of me and I'm not constantly stressed. But for me, I don't see a way to balance it all. Maybe a few people do manage a "successful" academic career and also not shortchanging their children or going crazy, but I don't many manage that.

I agree it SHOULD be a job you can do and fit around children. We manage nicely on the flexible working/working from home/fitting work around holidays side of things. But career progress activities are the things I'm dropping to do that.

yes Fennel - I seem to recall a long time ago, on another thread, discussing with you the implied "vs" in the middle of my MN name...

nkf, in my field, the women academics work harder, the more they progress. I have worked with a lot of successful women professors, in the UK and abroad, and they never stop. I used to come into work on Monday mornings to 50 emails they'd all sent me over the weekends. And they used to remind me, consolingly, that I would be able to work like this (60-70 hour weeks) once my children were bigger.

That's partly what made me ramp back my career ambitions, in my field the workload pressures get more as you get more successful, not less.

exactly.

have already razed my ambitions down to "would like to have a job", but threads like this make me wonder... Fennel, is there any point???

I'm not sure, really. I do think it's possible to be a successful academic and mother of several children but the women I know who manage this do tend to be very driven workaholics. and their sanity is sometimes questionable.

(is it time for my regularly trotted-out anecdote about my conference call with 6 hour old baby? That was a big factor in me feeling my work-life balance wasn't ideal).

In light of all the problems you ladies are facing career wise what advice would you give to an arts graduate considering further post grad courses and embarking on a career in academia?
Should I run a mile? or is it possible to carve out a career with three small children to look after?

The ones I know do spend August in Greece or the South of France. Maybe it's an age thing. Maybe it's got harder and they are of an older luckier generation. Good luck with whatever you all decide to do.