Is anyone else an academic who has not produced enough research while having kids and is now in the s***?

[Kathyis6incheshigh]

There are lots of academics on MN, just wondering if there is anyone else in my position.

Am pg with 3rd dc in 5 years. Have had hyperemesis and other problems in all 3 pgs, which on top of 2 maternity leaves means heaps of time off work. In the meantime I have completely lost research momentum and produced sod all apart from a few book reviews. I was not submitted for RAE (though fortunately my dept did very well without me so none of my colleagues are holding it against me personally.)
Every time I come back it takes me all my time to get back up to speed with teaching and admin, get on top of all the changes in my field etc, and I only ever seem to make baby steps towards producing anything before I am sick or pregnant again.
Just had uncomfortable meeting with (supportive) HoD at which she broke news to me that I am about to get a scary letter from Personnel and a process is going to start which will probably include ritual disembowelling/change to a teaching only contract if I don't get something submitted before baby is due. Which would be fine as long as the foetus behaves and sickness holds off - am only just back at work after 2 months off with HG.

Serves me right for having children, doesn't it?

It's crap, frankly, and shouldn't happen, and it is exactly this sort of behaviour, which seems to be on the increase, which is making me question whether I want to stay in academia.

Earlier this week one of my colleagues, with 20 years constant hard work as lecturer onwards, was in tears about the state of her career, and the way she was being treated by her organisation. All the hard work and little recognition. Another friend who IS a successful academic by anyone's standards (a professor, head of school, plus 2 lovely children and a functioning relationship, plus she's a kind and caring person, plus she works like mad) was saying she was thinking of leaving because all her hard work is not being acknowledged by the institution.

Am at the university system at the moment, not just from my experience but this thread and the friends who are crying on my shoulder about it all.

Kathy, very at that. How awful. I recognise the attempt to pigeonhole people into research groups and isolate/humilate those who don't seem to immediately fit.

Fennel, very similar situation here, our management is increasingly bullying and threatening. Talking to a (very successful, male, community minded, much loved) colleague the other day, we both agreed we didn't know where we fitted in any more, having felt very much part of the department a few years ago. Anyone who won't go along with the nasty modus operandi is made to feel like a complete outcase.

Outcast! Or do I mean nutcase? Either would do.

This thread has made me realise how endemic this problem is. I knew my current institution wasn't great on how it treated staff, it's ruthlessly pruning and focussed on research ratings and league tables, my previous one was better and I was much happier there, but this thread has surprised me in that it seems to be happening at a lot of universities.

Current uni is an Old Uni, the previous one was a New Uni, i.e. ex-poly, and I think they can be nicer places to work, often. In my old New uni there was a lot of focus on students and the community, less sacking or bullying of staff who didn't conform to the research targets.

(also I liked the new uni cos my particular department was an internationally recognised hotbed of lefties and feminists, that was fun).

god, horrid echoes of being picked last for netball team

thanks for tips, got no ideas at present - well yes i do, they just happen to be about next paper! - will ponder,...

fennel i'm glad to hear of someone having good excperiemnces at a new uni - my own was hideous and other job candidates i spoke to had similar. love the ides of an internationally recognused, etc.

please scuse typos, gigantuc snoring dd in left hand

Jesus, that's like picking the bloody hockey team, but with career consequences.

I suppose the idiot managers had thought this would be in some way constructive. I often wonder how academic management would be seen by the outside world, since inside, it seems VERY crap and half-arsed.

I don't think I have ever worked somewhere that managed to convey the notion that its staff were a valuable resource and should be encouraged. Perhaps I am somewhat rose-tinted about Proper Jobs having HR people who, yes they might be able to fire you instantly, but at the same time, while you're employed they want to get the best out of you.

In Universities, HR practices passed down via managers who would rather spoon out their eyeballs than give praise or actually facilitate career development or recognise the power of a collective approach leads to these 'beating will continue until morale improves' situations.

In my bit, we've just lost a potential PhD student because one of my junior colleagues, too inexperienced to know that to have a hope of an internal scholarship, you have to put in an ESRC competition application first, decided that rather than ask someone in the team for help and support, he would hold onto her, in case some more senior person 'stole' her from him. His response was 'why would I advise her to do a PhD when her institution won't support her'. To which mine was 'well why didn't you come and ask in order to find the support she needed' muttering 'dickhead individualist selfish bloke' under my breath...

I hate it. I hate that people are set into individual competition with each other IN THE SAME group. It is nonsense and inevitably leads to worse outcomes I think.

I'd like to bring in a Sports Coach to our group (with what funds hahahahahahaha?) but the very idea would have them all rolling in the aisles and rolling their eyes. But what if that focus and collective support and endeavour were rigorously applied?

PLEASE help me.

I have an interview next week for a type of Research Co-ordinator role in the department. I am spending the day reading RAE submissions and details about the new REF.

Can I ask how you lovely ladies women would like to be nurtured and supported in your research. Don't answer necessarily as ladies women or mothers please since we do not have a preponderance of either. Answer as academics. What would help you most?

Many many thanks. I am shitting myself rather anxious about this interview.

lessseee.... well, FIRST i'd like to be paid

second i've always liked the idea of a senior mentor from a diff dept, which takes away some of the pressure.

third it would've helped me enormously to have had someone prepared to read/critique my stuff specifically with an eye to getting published - i have no instinct for articles (100,000-word dissertation = beautiful elegant structure; 6000-word article = theoretical mudpie . not my supervisor who (a) had 90 billion other things to do, (b) just wasn't v good at useful critique, and (c) was more interested in getting me finished than mastering this vital skill. ironically there is now someone in the dept who could do that and was deeply committed to getting postgrads published, she just arrived too late foe me,.

• someone who knows what everyone is doing in some depth and can help people make contact

• budget to facilitate this (awaydays, discussions, lunches)

• co-ordinate regular supportive research meetings to talk about our work

• know what resources and support and people working in similar fields are at large in the university

• developmental activities (see Sports coaching above )

• respond quickly to funding calls, making sure they go across the right desks in time

• similarly conferences

• help develop strategic vision for research

• facilitate career building of junior and 'stalled' staff

Will think some more...

PhDlife - Ooh, senior mentor from different department - nice idea.
So someone who might once have worked in publishing (like me) would be good if she could offer editorial advice?
Lupus - oh God. That is great. (Feels great relief that you are not going for this job).

exactlky libra - wanna be my friend?

Well I do think that if we could establish CAWKs as an off-Mumsnet entity then we could match up more established researchers with developing researchers and establish some sort of mentoring process.

Hope you don't mind Libra but I just reported your post to MNHQ (the most direct route ) with the following:

Dear MNHQ

Dunno if you've seen this thread by a number of academics/PhD students interested in a private discussion. There are very specific reasons for wanting this (tis a very cut-throat business where putting ones weaknesses on public display can have career-damaging consequences, yet in which collaboration and co-operation can help enormously; also a VERY small world in which people are easily identifiable). I know you've had some strained discussion about private areas before, post-Moldies etc but would you reconsider offering some kind of 'private' or closed space? Is it even technically possible?

Thanks
LL

Hopefully they will come and reply here?

oh yes, i'd forgotten that possibility - do you have any ideas as to how that could be done?

Good idea LL!

I really do think that we could be supportive to each other, but it is difficult when we can't tell anyone which fields we are working in.

bravo, Lupus!

Hi all,
We are definitely going to do private groups along subject lines so would work very well for this group I think. There are a couple of things Tech has to do first, so it may take a a few weeks - bear with us.

Thanks Justine. That would be great.

Oh well done Lupus!

Re the 'floggings will continue until morale improves' approach, there was a fab cartoon in last month's Prospect with a picture of a couple of managers looking down through a window onto an office in which terrified office workers were being chased around the cubicles by a mad rhinoceros. Caption: 'Contrary to our intentions, morale seems to have actually decreased since we unleashed the rhino'

I was crying with laughter at it and had to explain to dh why.

Libra - I'll tell you some of the things my dept already does which are good as well as the stuff of which I dream!

1. We have a 'research area' in Blackboard which includes all kinds of useful stuff like info on grant application calls, REF documents etc. The best thing in there is the folder where people post submitted grant applications so other people can work out what makes a good one.

1. We have in the past had excellent research awaydays with small group discussions etc which genuinely built collaboration and helped us to see what other people were doing

1. Lots of visits from central research office in the university giving us advice or training on various different grants, specially tailored to our subject.

1. ditto research training on various areas - our lot are quite good at responding to requests and making things happen quickly.

What would be good:

Everything (advice, activities etc) needs to be tailored to take into account where each person is in their career and not just what senior staff think would be good(!).

1. agree with external mentor idea - my best advice has been from someone in a different dept
2. internal research mentoring needs to be appropriate so you are actually paired up with someone you get on with and who understands your research/your position

woo-hoo! thank-you, MN Towers - have some Tim-Tams

Thanks Justine!

Kathy, many thanks.
Am desperately making notes here.

(Do you look better in interviews if you do or don't take notes in?)

Re research co-ordinator role.
Definitely knowing what calls etc are out and ensuring that deadlines etc are known, but, even before this - being strategically involved in the areas that funders are interested in. This is not always possible I know but some research groups do seem able to influence the agendas of funders - so that they are well placed when calls come out, inviting funders to showcasing of research etc etc.
Also - helping people to be well-placed to facilitate cross-disciplinary/ inter-institution stuff, through maintaining info - in order to respond to calls for networks etc (I know we are supposed to maintain our own networks but I think it comes back to a common theme in this thread - time etc etc)

Libra - presumably a lot of what you might do depends on what support you would have available ie is it a more strategic role, or managerial etc?

Kathy, can I suggest an amendment to your first "what would be good" point - it not only has to take into account where each person is in their career, but also where they are in their life. eg. It makes perfect sense to tell a new post-phd to "spend a year publishing" - but it makes no sense to say that to someone with two small babies. If I was working I would be strongly inclined to concentrate on, say, getting some supervision, editing, and/or and committee participation under my belt - evil necessities that could then be scaled back when my thinking brain returns. (she says, naively.)