Is anyone else an academic who has not produced enough research while having kids and is now in the s***?

[Kathyis6incheshigh]

There are lots of academics on MN, just wondering if there is anyone else in my position.

Am pg with 3rd dc in 5 years. Have had hyperemesis and other problems in all 3 pgs, which on top of 2 maternity leaves means heaps of time off work. In the meantime I have completely lost research momentum and produced sod all apart from a few book reviews. I was not submitted for RAE (though fortunately my dept did very well without me so none of my colleagues are holding it against me personally.)
Every time I come back it takes me all my time to get back up to speed with teaching and admin, get on top of all the changes in my field etc, and I only ever seem to make baby steps towards producing anything before I am sick or pregnant again.
Just had uncomfortable meeting with (supportive) HoD at which she broke news to me that I am about to get a scary letter from Personnel and a process is going to start which will probably include ritual disembowelling/change to a teaching only contract if I don't get something submitted before baby is due. Which would be fine as long as the foetus behaves and sickness holds off - am only just back at work after 2 months off with HG.

Serves me right for having children, doesn't it?

You're sending it off today PhDLife - you said you would.

It very much comes down to having the right people reading it. I've just had a hugely useful conversation with a friend of mine who is a barrister/law academic (ie nothing to do with my field at all) but with whom I have a productive proof-reading relationship - he is fab, he will always turn it round quickly and make very perceptive comments which also take into account the realities of the situation (eg he won't suggest I completely revise something with an impending deadline). I've sent the paper I'm about to submit to him and a carefully selected supportive colleague. The supportive colleague will give me some subject-specific input and I know he will be encouraging, but he is also disorganised (because he's always helping people out ) so I will value his advice if I get it soon but won't wait for him if I don't.
OTOH when I was preparing my book proposal my then HoD helpfully offered to read it, which was v kind of him but he didn't like what I was trying to do and is not the most tactful person in the world.... let's say it didn't do anything for my confidence at a stage when encouragement was desperately needed....

x-post PhDLife.
The instructions might not be too onerous - depends what format the paper is already in.

phdlife: yes, just DO the editorial things and get the blardy thing off!

The main issue will be the bibliographic format, everything else will be v quick to alter on your word processor. But if you use some sort of reference manager software, you can usually regenerate your bibliography in the right or similar format quickly.

I am now pulled in competing directions with my own work. External examining currently which is distracting. But had good feedback on current piece from co-author so hoping I can meet my target of sending off by end of June.

That just leaves the two other things I was on a mid-June deadline for writing... And that was with two extensions already. Eeeek. Ah well, at least it is production. I think I need the deadlines.

I'd be up for a reading group/sharing work on here. Though I think we might need some 'off board' arrangement that remains anonymous/confidential? I am happy to offer what little mentoring I can (though need a mentor myself too!) Any ideas about how we could do this?

ooh Lupus - LOVE your group-reading idea.

do you think I shouldn't chase prof for comments? I had a quick read of first 10pp and I'm mostly liking it so could send it off once I sort the template malarky (and no I'm not starting that now - it's nearly 10:30pm and I'm turning into a pumpkin even as I type!).

Is it ok to submit a piece 1000 words too long, and assume I can trim if it's accepted? Or trim first?

Not my idea- someone else down the thread

Now, see, if I'd been a bloke proper academic, I'd have shut up and taken the credit wouldn't I?

Ah yes. Comments. Well, I would chase if you think they will a. get them back quickly, and b. be useful. But depends on how happy you are with the version you've got and your assessment of how favourable reviewers will be. There's an argument after a certain amount of prevarication for just getting it in and letting the actual reviewers comment. Most journals want to publish good material, and all but the most important are not overwhelmed with credible submissions. So generally (not always but mostly) editorial teams are constructive.

A really really good tip for building confidence I was given a long time ago was to get myself on an editorial board or reviewing papers for them. Like reviewing research grants etc, it is VERY helpful to the reviewer to see how the process works and how ones own work is not the pile of crap we often think it is...

I agree with Lupus. I would only chase the comments if you are sure they'll be constructive, and helpful enough to make a big difference to the likelihood of the paper being accepted (rather than just making it even more perfect). I wouldn't want to risk getting derailed from submitting it if you're this close to submission, and it is probably actually pretty good if you've looked at the first 10 pages and liked it.
Being a reviewer/journal editor is a really good idea Lupus, I'd never thought about it from that angle before.

hi all

glad I left this thread on my watch list still going strong!

Lupus, I could definitely use some advice/mentoring re: some strategic research/writing projects I have in mind (a kind of 3-year plan -- what to take on? what to leave? what to work on in the background? etc.) if that's what you mean by a reading group? I'd also be very happy to give advice/feedback/random thoughts to others.

Not sure actually sharing research (e.g. revising papers) would be feasible without losing anonymity -- but mentoring certainly, establishing strategies etc.

Lupus, Kathy -- what is the best way to get oneself on an editorial board? I know some colleagues with editorial responsibilities who dread the work a bit (takes forever, doesn't count as 'research') but it does add up to esteem on top of giving you an inside edge?

Well, thank you Lupus for not taking my credit!

As for getting comments on papers etc., one thing I've learnt in my last few years as an academic is that not all comments are useful. Until I finished my PhD, I never realized that some people will give you rubbish comments, or will just say your work is "great" because they can't be bothered (or don't want to cause upset).

Fortunately, I have found a senior colleague in my field in another university who is prepared to read my work and to give it to me straight about what needs doing. Earlier on in my career I asked two colleagues at my university to read a paper I planned to send off. They said it was fine, but it got totally lambasted by the journal's reviewers - who with hindsight I can see were right.

If we had an anonymous "peer review" group on here maybe we could provide honest, but kind and constructive criticism, of the sort that I think is really needed.

I'm guessing we are all in different fields, though, so it would be an outsider's perspective.

PS I should also get myself on some editorial/review boards - so Lupus, how did you do that?

Phdlife, sorry forgot to mention that i would chase comments but not wait if they weren't there in time for your own schedule. If you get them in time and they propose manageable changes you think are worthwhile, you could make them. If they're late or the reviewer is proposing bigger changes, it is your prerogative to ignore them, for the sake of maintaining some forward momentum

I am a shameless networker when I do go to conferences so I think putting your name about helps. In my own case (and I am only on one board, quite recently but have reviewed things for lots of journals), I think people knowing what you're working on helps. In my case that's a mix of submitting stuff myself and talking to people I know. For grant proposals I think it becomes taken for granted by research councils that if you submit something, you're kind of expected to review stuff for them also.

Asking to review books (if you're at an early stage of your career) and sending in at the same time a CV and list of research topics you could comment upon is a common way to let yourself be known to editorial teams. I have never tried the direct approach (email the managing editor and tell them about yourself) but imagine if you're a specialist in a particular field, you might be needed. If all papers have to be reviewed by 3 specialists who have no vested interest in a field, and senior people don't want to do it, then you can see how good, qualified people are in demand for reviewing.

But I agree, it can become very time-consuming. I do a bit and now only strategically (will it help me?).

When I filled in the Mumsnet census and they asked what would improve the site, I said that private areas (ie any MN members welcome, just not Googlable) would be good. If they did that it would be one way we could talk about our research without giving too much away. (I wouldn't really mind if an MN member worked out who I was, but I don't want random googling of my subject by a student or colleague to bring them to Mumsnet!)

Otherwise it's hard to know how to do mentoring over more specific things other than on an individual basis via email.

I must say I have learnt a huge amount from people on this thread though - copious thanks to everyone who has participated so far.

It's often so hard to be really open with colleagues and there are so many issues associated with their mentoring you - they may be your manager at some point or be talking to your manager, or they may know a lot about research but just not get the issues around combining it with children. Getting a range of viewpoints from disinterested parties like on here is potentially much more helpful.

From that perspective a private area sounds great, Kathy ...
if such a thing were mumsnet sanctioned and it wouldn't cause a whole heap of trouble.

rofl at CWAKs

Hello and welcome. Quite tough doing P/t PhD and teaching and no-one to talk to about stuff? Especially with a disinterested supervisor. What stage are you at in the PhD?

Hello Porncocktail! I just wanted to say that I was in a slightly similar situation to you, in so far as I didn't live in the town where I studied for my Phd, and went to the department about twice a year. My supervisor was fortunately fantastic but very arm's length, and I also felt completely isolated from an academic department and academia in general. Felt like an imposter to be honest (still do, think I might always feel like that). Also, although I didn't have my DD then, I was holding down a job at the same time (whilst supposedly doing the Phd full-time, but I needed the cash). So there were long stretches when I was spending not much more than two days a week on the Phd, sometimes not even that. It WAS really hard but I managed to complete it in three years (it was social sciences). I'm just saying this mainly in case you need encouraging, because it IS doable by snatching time here and there, although I also know that my situation's not totally comparable to having a DC which is even harder I'm sure.

Also, this might be slightly off the point, but I don't think my Phd was that good! It did however get through, with no corrections amazingly. My supervisor who is very very well known in her field sort of encouraged that, she just said write it and submit it and get it done! Although that seemed like the right priority then, I have to admit that I'm regretting it slightly now that I am trying to produce papers, as the Phd essentially needs rewriting to get it to a sufficiently good quality and the process is more painful as a result, although it's probably just deferred pain! Anyway, I guess what I'm rambling on about is there can be a certain pragmatism in just getting the damn thing written? Although where that leaves me now, well, my name says it all! I always said that I'd do my 'best' work when I could devote all my attention to it, and now I've realised that there's never going to be a time when I can shut myself in a room and think deep thoughts without life getting in the way!

Phew, total ramble over now!! Sorry about that .... I'll go away and try and think some deep thoughts now ....

Can I ask a REALLY specific question about something? I am presenting to a conference shortly, and have written a paper with some (for me!) quite complex theoretical ideas (it's a social sciencey subject). Can anyone tell me whether it's OK to 'read' from a paper to some extent, rather than go ad hoc from your powerpoint slides? I know that reading from a paper can be a bit boring, but trying to get these points across, which I think are worthwhile, without doing so makes me feel a bit sick and nervous, especially as I only have a short time to prepare! I hope it's OK to ask this kind of question here.

Nopubs
I am also in a social sciencey subject and would say it depends on HOW you read from the paper.
In my view (and I am sure there will be different ones) it's better to get across the complex ideas clearly - however you do it. If that's reading rather than waffling around a powerpoint slide then I would prefer that, as a member of an audience.
It may also depend on how long you have for the presentation. If it's short then reading may ensure that you keep to time better.
If you read with meaning and engagment (eye contact etc) then the audience will also appreciate that.

agree with FouFoucault - some of the best papers I've been to have been read because they were dealing with complex theoretical things where trying to compose sentences on the spot would (except for a few v clever people) have led to waffling and tangled grammar.
If I have a presentation to do where I am afraid I might be particularly nervous I would always write it out in full to give me something to fall back on, but with bits highlighted in the text so that once I am more relaxed I can extemporise if I want to.
It comes down to how you write it as well as how you deliver it - write it for an audience (short sentences, addressing audience directly) rather than cut and pasting existing text.
After all, when politicians give speeches they are reading from autocue but they are still engaging directly with their audience. If you've been told never to read it's probably because the person who told you was thinking of dire presentations where the person just sits there and reads into their lap without looking up from the page.

Nopubs, in one of my (humanities/SS) areas noone would dream of reading from a paper. they're all real performers (and I mean that in the nicest possible way!)

but the last conf I went to was in a more interdisciplinary area, and everyone read from their papers, and done very well indeed.

might be worth asking one of the conf organisers what is typical of their type of conf.

HLaurens - sorry to mis-reference your group-reading idea! .

porncocktail don't sweat about the move - you do have to do what is best for you. My phd supervisor was fab in many many ways and her letting me flounder did indeed give me the opportunity to learn a LOT, but I also spent a lot of time stressed, depressed, and rewriting what I later recognised as utter crap. (Incidentally she was one of those people so keen to be encouraging that she never did say anything terribly helpful about my frankly lousy article-writing, so I had to learn that right at the end of my phd, after my confidence took a severe kicking.) If you feel you'll get better support elsewhere, then go - it's worth it.

anyone - trim 1000 words (to reach journal's maximum) before submitting or if accepted? I guess doing it now would allow time for chased prof to get back to me...

Thanks so much everyone, really helpful. Now I have to work out how to trim a 12,000 word (yes, 12,000 waaaaay too long) article into a 30 minute presentation! Aaaaargh.

Nopubs - another vote for reading the paper as long as you read it fluently and in an engaging manner. Incidently, in my field it is normal to read your paper at conferences and seminars.

Viz. length - it will take you about ten minutes to read about five pages of double-spaced type-written A4, so for a 30 minute presentation, don't have any more than fifteen pages of text.

Back to editorial boards: in fact one journal in my area I have noticed are actually advertising for members, so might be worth just asking the editorial assistant what the policies are if it's something you might want to do?