Is anyone else an academic who has not produced enough research while having kids and is now in the s***?

[Kathyis6incheshigh]

There are lots of academics on MN, just wondering if there is anyone else in my position.

Am pg with 3rd dc in 5 years. Have had hyperemesis and other problems in all 3 pgs, which on top of 2 maternity leaves means heaps of time off work. In the meantime I have completely lost research momentum and produced sod all apart from a few book reviews. I was not submitted for RAE (though fortunately my dept did very well without me so none of my colleagues are holding it against me personally.)
Every time I come back it takes me all my time to get back up to speed with teaching and admin, get on top of all the changes in my field etc, and I only ever seem to make baby steps towards producing anything before I am sick or pregnant again.
Just had uncomfortable meeting with (supportive) HoD at which she broke news to me that I am about to get a scary letter from Personnel and a process is going to start which will probably include ritual disembowelling/change to a teaching only contract if I don't get something submitted before baby is due. Which would be fine as long as the foetus behaves and sickness holds off - am only just back at work after 2 months off with HG.

Serves me right for having children, doesn't it?

I feel like you arolf... it IS possible though, I think, to do it? I don't want to fall into that trap that suggests that just because some women have made it, all women can, or that the ones that don't are crap. But do you think it's worth remembering, before we all get too depressed, that there are women out there who have found a way through, so perhaps we should focus on that as well on a positive emphasis on the types of strategies that seem to work!? I don't want to sound too Pollyanna'ish about it, but my PHd supervisor for example had a fantastic reputation with students, an amazingly successful career, and a good family life, from everything I saw. I think she's probably quite a remarkable person admittedly and hides a very ambitious inner core underneath a gentle exterior, but still ... is there some hope!?!

You are right nopubs, many women do succeed in academia, and many of them have children.

I think it's a matter of compromise, what you're prepared to do, or give up, to achieve these things. Because it does take a huge time commitment, and perhaps a good strategic approach, to succeed in the traditional way of measuring academic success.

Some people do manage it Arolf. I don't think those of us who struggle need to feel bad that we don't find it easy - I agree Nopubs, it's good to look at the successful ones and see what we can learn.
Sometimes I think it's really just one or two factors that go wrong for an individual, like illness + unreasonable boss, or dept does badly in RAE + unreasonable colleagues, or depression + move abroad. IMO having the kids just makes it harder to get through things which the child-free academic might cope with, because you have less free time to play with so it's harder to make up time lost or do the extra that someone is demanding.
It's not the case that being a woman academic with kids means you will have a hard time.

Interesting thread.

Redcard that is awful. I had my four peer reviewed articles lined up for the RAE but was not included. It was, as I see it, a way of being sidelined punished for not jumping through the hoops everyone here has been talking about (my book came out a month after the RAE dealine).

Kathy, sorry you are not feeling well.

The difficult thing I find is having a DP who is also an academic (the more successful kind). If there are deadlines for admin or research or conferences that he has to meet then I have to give way. He does the same for me but I don't have so many time specific things (contracts!) and of course, this means that my research time is diminished even further.

On the other hand, after RAE rejection, it is hard to get motivated for the next research project.

I absolutely agree with all that and also that if some people suffer as a result of bad luck, some people really benefit from good luck, which sounds flippant but isn't meant too. Right time, right place sort of thing. It was a shock to me how important it is to plan your research around what is fashionable as opposed to intrinsically interesting or important! Also, and I am definitely not suggesting that I have anything like the issues to deal with that others do on this thread, but I'm sort of working on the basis that it might just about be possible to have it all, but not all of the time. I'll report back on on that one though, probably in about ten years time!

I take Fennel's point about it not being a moment for a campaign in that anything which takes up more resources is unlikely to be successful right now.
However I do believe that there are a great many people out there involved in some way with these issues (Personnel depts, funding bodies) who are basically well-disposed towards women and equality but may not be aware of all the implications in the detail of what they do.
For instance, I was reading through some grant regs the other day (I think it was Leverhulme) and there was a rule that you couldn't apply if you were part-time. That kind of thing wouldn't cost any money to change. If we can think of any more examples of rules or systems that work against women but are just there because they always have been and haven't moved on yet, they might be the areas to focus on.

MagicMountain, thanks for the sympathy - I'm much better now than I was a week ago, mainly because HoD has said I must take time off if I'm not well and can just add any days I take off onto my June deadline, so that takes the pressure off a bit.

Sorry to hear about your RAE thing. That is horrible. There was so much politics with RAE submissions and heads of department trying to be strategic without really knowing enough about it to do so properly, there were some odd decisions made in places. It's very important not to confuse that with a meaningful judgement on research quality!

I know what you mean about how once someone is more established, they have all these deadlines and Important Things to do and more lowly researchers are generally going to get sidelined. This happens at an intra-departmental level as well as at home - if an HoD makes a decision to bring forward the study leaves of researchers with a good track record who are almost certain to produce their high quality outputs rather than risk the newer researchers getting the time, it's understandable from the strategy point of view, but also sucks if you are at a junior level!

Thank you very much for your support, I appreciate it.

I have a bit of an update. Some of this was precipitated by an upcoming appraisal and the chat with HoD was because I will have to address some of these things. He thought maybe I'd just be happier with a teaching/management only route (which there is no doubt in anyone's mind, even mind, that I could do very well at: I am, they all agree, excellent HoD/Dean/senior manager material)

But you know what - and you lot really helped me realise this - I'm not ready for it. Because I want to give my research career a proper go. You don't have to do it all in your twenties, do you?

So after lots of tears I went and updated my CV and booked an informal pre-appraisal meeting with my research manager (a different person). He was MUCH more positive about what I have done and can do, as I do actually have lots of activity and a good track record. He seemed to recognise the accelerator effect in the last few years - that is, that my productivity has increased dramatically. He is going to come along to the appraisal and then they can fight it out between them which bits of me they get .

And I've nearly finished the paper which I am first author on, so should be ready to submit this month, leaving me free to get the next sole authored one done over the summer. And hopefully a bit of time to hang out with my kids.

I have also realised what I have to do. I have never lost my drive, or my desire, or my ideas: I only ever lack focus. So I'm going to step back from being a brilliant citizen and only be adequate for a while. I reckon pulling in a couple of good grants which junior colleagues can join in with is better citizenship in my position than organising yet another research group meeting or offering to do more admin.

I just needed a little push to think the right way; and a bit of a boost to my confidence.

Thanks.

mind?!

mine...

hurrah for your research manager, redcard!

Brilliant!
And what a great idea to do research grant applications as a way to fulfil your need to be a good citizen.

Just bumping this thread to keep it alive.
I polished off my article (for the 30th June deadline) and sent it round to a few friends for comments.
Note for anyone else who is procrastinating about turning their PhD into papers: don't do what I did and spend years trying to write the perfect paper. Just do the quickest job you possibly can .

Good news Kathy! Re: Phd advice, I am struggling with that right now, but don't really know what the perfect paper would even be, just fighting with the voice in my head that tells me it's all been said a million times before and I've got nothing to add!!!

Yes I know that voice, she comes in my head too NoPubsYet
My quickest way to shut her up at the moment is to say that's true of half the papers people write but it doesn't seem to stop them getting published so why shouldn't I have a shot?

thank you for the tip, from a person who has been faffing around with 2 stupid paragraphs since before the start of this thread

shall start write the next one tonight, honest!

what I really want is for someone to explain to me why I'm sitting on a finished article, and not sending it to a journal?

or better yet, gimme a damn good kick in the procrastinator, so that I send it off without, you know, reading it just "one more time".

Hmm well I would hazard a guess it might be because part of you thinks it will get rejected and is avoiding this by not even sending it off?
That's what I'm like, anyway. I freaked out all over again when I read the submission procedure for the journal I'm sending this one to and it said, 'The Editor makes a decision on whether it should be declined straightaway.'
(Noooo don't decline it straightaway! I know it's meant to be really good that they try to give people quick decisions, but actually I don't mind if they hang onto it for 6 months then reject it, because I'll be busy with my new baby then and I won't care, but I can't bear the thought that I'll get all hyped up and pleased about sending it off and then a day or two later there'll be a horrible email in my inbox and I'll be back to square one and I'll cry! Oops, am catastrophising there.... better get a grip.... I'm sure no-one else in my dept thinks like this.)

You've got to just send it, PhDLife.....

Hello Kathy, congrats, didnt realise you were pregnant again!

phdlife...dont do what i did...i.e. get a paper accepted by the best journal in your field then not do the corrections as too busy in new job. Several years ago now but im still embarassed about it and was just plain lazy and daft of me!

Luckily im not in academia so hasnt affected me apart from personal shame!

KAthy I think you're right - esp as this is a rewrite of something that already got knocked back once.

have written large theoretical para tonight and plotted the next one. Bed now, will send article tomorrow. Yes, I know I'm doing it again (sort of) but with sick ds and bfing dd I really do need bed right now.

are you managing to balance need to work with not making yourself sick okay?

Thanks Hairybabysmum!
Yes that does sound pretty silly, and very much the sort of thing I would do! It's hard to find the time for these things that have to fit in round the edges though.

PhDLife - well done on your two paras! BTW I don't think going to bed when you really need to counts as procrastinating. You must post here and tell us when you've sent off the article tomorrow and we can give you a round of virtual applause.

Thanks for asking, am managing much better with work/sickness now I've been officially told I can add any sick days onto the June deadline. I might even meet the deadline and not have to.

Have just found this thread. Can I join? I have two DDs 3 and 1, and have just returned after my second maternity leave.

I've just about managed to keep up my research - I was put in for the RAE, though my book didn't come out in time, to the dismay of my HoD. Still it will be out soon and will be in the RAF!

I can see myself getting left behind in the promotion stakes though. However, unlike some here, I can't really say I'm that bothered. The whole thing is such a game, as far as I can see - more depends on who you schmooze than how good you actually are. Likewise the RAE/RAF is so dumb I can't really bring myself to take it seriously. I'm in a humanities subject and the methods or measuring research quality are so random.

Welcome to CAWK HLaurens
Promotion doesn't bother me either, I just don't want my job security to be put at risk! I have several friends who are likely to leapfrog me in promotion within the next couple of years and that's fine.

Yes, I can see from reading the thread that you are being threatened with disposal in the "research inactive" dustbin.

FWIW I think this is pretty dreadful, and that not enough consideration has been given to your situation. I didn't suffer any illness during my pregnancies, and DD2 was a remarkably easy baby, so I got quite a lot done whilst on maternity leave as DD1 was still at the childminder 3 days a week. I can't imagine producing any research while feeling as dreadful as you have.

As for your fear of sending something off - can you get a colleague in your field (not at your institution) to give it the once over before you send it off? Can you find someone who will give you an honest opinion? Then you might get some reassurance that the piece ok.

Perhaps we can have a CAWK online reading group too!!!

see, I had someone offer to read my piece before I sent it off, but I sent it to them and of course never heard back, and now I think, if I go ask them to read it please, then I'm just delaying a bit more.

phdlife - you should chase them up. If you wait for their comments, then revise accordingly, the item is more likely to be accepted with fewer revisions and then be published more quickly. So overall, you are not delaying things at all!

Mind you, I'm in a field where it is normal for it to take 8 years for the book of your PhD thesis to be published, so perhaps my timescales are a bit longer than everyone elses....

mmm, ok, might do it. just found the damn journal wants me to download a template for submissions - 3pp of instructions, fgs! So looks like I won't be submitting it tonight after all...