Any City lawyers here? Do I need to quit?

[BurningOutt]

I feel like I might be approaching burn out, but as a result am not really in a position to think straight.

Im 38, 11pqe and on partner “track” in litigation in a US firm - should have been due to be made up this year but apparently it will be next now due to vague firmwide politics. I’m heading for 2100 hours this year, have brought in my own client, am running cases for head of team with minimal supervision. Associates are heavily weighted towards junior end so im
also doing a lot of the work as well as management. I know that I am excellent at my job, a good lawyer and a good manager, and I enjoy it (when it’s not this intense).

But my kids are 5 and 7 and I feel like I’ve barely seen them this year. I feel like the last few years since dc1 started school in particular have flown by - my dc2 was a baby then and now she’s not.

My DH is a low earner and both of us come from working class backgrounds so even though I earn v well we have a small house, big mortgage. Up till this September when dc2 started school I was paying 40% of my takehome salary to the nanny so haven’t had a flush life at all.

I feel like just throwing in the towel and leaving London, finding a slower paced, lower paid job. But I worry that I will regret it as I’m so close to the “prize” now and the extra money could make a massive difference to my kids’ future.

I grew up in poverty so was massively motivated to do this job to avoid my kids having the childhood I had, but in hindsight I had so much more time with my mum and I wonder if that love and time investment is ultimately what helped me to thrive?

I’ve also always wanted 3 kids and my time there is obviously running out, and would probably be totally unsustainable on top of my job as it is right now (and do I just want the mat leave to have a break).

Should I just push through and things will get better, or give it up and start afresh?

Can you afford a big pay cut? If so, look into litigation roles with the GLD or other parts of the civil service (eg this job which has now closed but equivalents come up fairly regularly across the civil service) https://jobs.thelawyer.com/job/1699944/litigation-director/

You could absolutely go in at director level, you’d be running high level litigation, loads of black letter law but also thinking about the interaction of law and policy. Definitely not a “clock off at 5” sort of job but much better work life balance than US private practice.

I don’t think in house sounds right for you, based on what you’ve said.

The pp who said I don’t have much in the way of mentorship/sponsorship is right. My sponsor is useless on that front but relies on me totally to execute on all his matters. I’m the mug for tolerating this.

I've done a little work on some of these sorts of issues. And one thing that the HR, networking, comms teams tell me time and time again is a huge challenge is that they can put programs in place and they can invest etc, but the problem is making sure that the people they're aimed at are actually getting value AND, in the case of sponsorship/mentoring, that the sponsor/mentor are doing it right.

If you're working for an American firm in London I think it's very likely they have all kinds of programes that you may not even be aware of. I would take an hour or two to really have a little look at the intranet and see what's out there. Speak to others as well - perhaps a female partner you know, even if not well or not in your practice group, or other senior associates/counsel. Or even contact HR directly. Assuming you ARE on partner track, they really really don't want to lose you so they are highly incentivised at this point to invest in you to avoid losing the cost of your training before you get to partner. And this is x100 for women who tend to fall away at this crucial juncture.

If you speak to HR directly, I would position it as you are on this final push towards partner and you would like to know what support there is in the form of sponsorship/mentoring, particularly for women with young families. if nothing else, youneed ot be in touch with other women like you, in other practice groups most likely, who you can share this burden with.

Just looked at The Lawyer jobs section and there are lots of litigation jobs in the BVI / Caymans / Turks and Caicos.

Just saying… 🌴

@IndiaAutumn I couldn’t afford to stay in London with that much of a paycut. DH earns significantly less than I do so I need well over 6 figures to pay the mortgage. I think the only way to avoid having to massively downsize the house (which is a terrace in zone 3 btw and needs lots of work done to it) would be to leave London so money goes further. I would otherwise love to work for GLD as I think the work would be fascinating.

@minipie I have to say I can’t think of anything worse!

@JadziaD my firm is tiny in London and there are no female partners in my team. There are lots in the US but I don’t know any of them, and life is very different there (for better and worse). For one thing they are made up in their 6th-8th year so look on in horror at 11pqe me still waiting. One of the exhausting factors about all this is that ever since I had my first child at 3.5 pqe (at a different firm) I’ve been the only working mother/role model in any team I’ve ever been in.

Aaah, that IS difficult. In which case, I would 100% be looking across the ocean for mentorship and support. As a global firm, they should beencouraging cross-border mentorship and certainly, the Global firms I work with do this routinely. I would definitely put in a call to HR. Mention that you're the only one, you feel like you're out on a limb, and what can they suggest to get you closer to potential mentors and support coming out of the US.

I am inclined to think that if there are no female partners in litigation in London, they are highly motivated to ensure you don't burn out because this sort of thing is increasingly frowned upon by clients.

Honestly, if you can get out, please do it. Without giving too much away me and my husband are both lawyers at big international law firms and my husband has just had a big mental breakdown from the stress of work and everything that goes with it. We have young kids too. it’s been horrendous and honestly it is not worth it at all. We are rethinking everything and both considering salary drops and relocation.

my dad had a big job and was never around and when he was, he was so stressed out I didn’t want to be around him. I do not want that for our kids.

we have friends who are lawyers up North and although they do work hard, it’s not the same. I will say law is law unfortunately, so maybe in-house is the answer, we are still considering our options.

Hi OP, I’ve been reading this thread with interest as I’m in a not dissimilar situation, albeit in m&a rather than law, and without kids (how do people do this with kids?!). Work can be brutal at times and the older I get, the more disillusioned I become. I’m 36 now, I’ve been doing this for over 13 years and I’m increasingly feeling ‘enough is enough’. The issue i have is I CAN’T leave as I’m on a work visa that is tied to my specific job. So quitting = getting deported, effectively. I love living here and my life with DP, so naturally I have no choice but to stay in a job I hate. You on the other hand DO have a choice! A choice I would kill for. You can walk out of a job that’s making you miserable and look towards a better work life balance and job satisfaction. You just need to be brave and make the leap.

There’s a great thread going atm about opting out of consumerism and buying less even though you can afford it. Think about how much money you really need to be happy. Can you earn that if you moved to in-house, a smaller firm or to working outside London?

The pp who said I don’t have much in the way of mentorship/sponsorship is right. My sponsor is useless on that front but relies on me totally to execute on all his matters. I’m the mug for tolerating this

This is a classic trap, and I’ve seen it a lot. The brilliant person who is indispensable is left stuck in a persistent No. 2 position while the highly confident, hustling less experienced person gets the promotion because it’s obvious that’s where they’re going and they won’t shut up about it.

There are a few ways out of this - try as many as you want. One is to call out the under investment in your career and your partner track, and make it something they have to address. Another is to pick and groom YOUR successor - who is coming up the ranks, who is ready or nearly ready to take more of your responsibilities and free you up to grow? And another is to get sponsorship and endorsements from a lot of people, more varied the better. Don’t have your work profile be dominated by being someone else’s indispensable helper. It boxes you in.

You’re not a mug, by the way - as I said, it’s a classic, so much so that it features in a women in leadership course my firm delivers. And annoyingly it happens to women far more often than it happens to men. Other posters’ advice to get talking to other women is good - get some daylight on the problem, and find out what others did to solve it for them because you can bet your life there will be plenty of precedents!

Hi @BurningOutt I’m a fellow lawyer here. You’ve done so well to get to your position. I would push through. Make partner. You deserve it. Then see what your options are - hopefully you can hire a senior lawyer to help you. Best of luck. No don’t go in house - once you leave pp it is so hard to go back. Can you work from home more often at all

I'm not a lawyer but in your position I'd go in-house for a local firm you genuinely believe in. Or, if you love litigation so much - a firm that is fraught with legal problems.

You can never get back the hours of your children's childhood. It might be harder to become partner later but not impossible, whereas it is impossible to rewind their childhood.

Move for salaried partnership to a nonUS law firm. Or even somewhere like Bakers that is less brutal here, despite being US. You’ll take a pay cut but you’ll have better WL balance

How about doing offshore law (working for one of the offshore law firms but based in London). The hours should be a bit better

It is really hard, OP, especially with house prices in London.

I’m a solicitor in the regions, with a similar set up to you (lower earning DH, from modest backgrounds, 2 kids).

One thing I have found hard in the past is being the breadwinner & feeling trapped by a job I don’t always love in order to keep the lifestyle we’ve got. We simply couldn’t afford to stay in our current home on DH’s salary (which isn’t that low, just not high enough!).

That has eased for a couple of reasons. Firstly, the kids are older - in a few years time if the worst happened (lost my job & couldn’t find a new one) they’d be at Uni and we could sell up & downsize without too much upset to them.

The second is that I’ve found a more flexible role - I work as a consultant for a silver circle firm, paid by the hour. There are sometimes stressful weeks, but I’m doing only what I love (advisory work/client relationships) with none of the “extras” or pressure to hit an hours target. I rarely work weekends or late into the evening (my colleagues do).

A recruiter contacted me about an interim role in a US firm and the salary was insane (twice what I’m on now) but all I could think was what I’d have to sacrifice (everything!) to do it for 6 months.

I’d imagine that as a litigator your options are probably quite wide - find a firm that pays less (but still enough) but expects less and move to a cheaper house, move to the regions, go freelance.

Don’t have your work profile be dominated by being someone else’s indispensable helper. It boxes you in.

@GreenGarlic This touched a nerve - this is exactly what I am. The someone is the head of team/big rainmaker, so has the power to push me through, but has also effectively stopped me working for anyone else. It is stifling.

It also means that raising underinvestment in my career is a direct criticism of this person, so it is difficult. In many ways it feels like an abusive relationship.

I think in your shoes I’d try to move - based on what you’ve said you won’t make partner at your current firm because you’re too useful exactly where you are, and you’ll run yourself into the ground trying. It won’t do anyone any good if you really do reach burnout: the firm will throw you on the scrap heap without a second thought.

I think this has already been said upthread, but could you think about moving to a magic circle UK firm? It would still be long hours but better than a US one, and there’d be a bigger team and more women to network with.

I think you’d like GLD litigation (and they’d be delighted to have someone who actually wants to be a litigator: they have trouble finding good people as so many of their lawyers want to do advisory work) but I appreciate that you couldn’t afford to move. And it doesn’t sound as though in-house is right for you. I moved in-house when DD was 6, but I like advisory work and solving problems so they don’t turn into litigation.

Your biggest problem obviously the mortgage- could you move a bit further out and have a smaller one? We’re also zone 3 and if you go a couple of miles further west house prices drop quite a bit.

I think you need to be looking for another firm, although I do appreciate that at the moment trying to find and interview for another job when you are doing insane hours and questioning everything is not the easiest. At least you will get a better idea of the market and your options. I think at the moment you are at risk of making a knee jerk reaction to your whole career in response to a particular firm and, from the sound of it, a particular manager.

I also think if you do get another role (whether at partnership or other level) you will quickly find out whether they really did intend to make you partner at your current firm or not.

I've also seen many women get stuck in the 'indispensible helper' role, even moving firms when their boss moves as a team. And then their career essentially being put on hold for years because of that. I think you also need to find some decent mentorship, and from what you say you are going to have to look for it outside your own firm. Yes, yet another thing to do when you are insanely busy, but important.

It also means that raising underinvestment in my career is a direct criticism of this person, so it is difficult. In many ways it feels like an abusive relationship.

Take heart. He could be blind to the bigger picture (ie not doing this maliciously) but you’ve got it figured out now so you can take control. It’s a problem for him too because as you’ve already identified the situation is unsustainable and the firm is at risk of losing you and all your valuable knowledge and relationships.

Is there a way to bait the hook with what the fish likes to eat? Figure out what SHOULD happen to right- size your role (better manager level support, him working with you to develop your rain maker skills so he can delegate more partner level work to you).

There’s got to be an upside for him as well - sometimes you can go in with a solution all worked out and say “sign here”! How would having you as partner help him? Is there part of his 5 year plan that you’re ready to pick up and run with, as his partner not his underling? And is there someone on the way up who should have your current role (or part of it)as a stretch opportunity? Show off your leadership smarts by moving them up.

And document everything, of course, although I’m sure as a lawyer you’re doing that already!

I’ve experienced and witnessed this so often. Do NOT beat yourself up; it’s fairly common. I would say that by taking control, driving the change you want to have happen, can be a very empowering experience and will only add to your leadership skills.

Best of luck.

PS - on moving up someone who’s ready for a stretch, I did this the last time I changed roles. I was getting stale in the role I had, knew where I wanted to go, and made promoting my team member part of the business case. He was ready for leadership (and possibly a flight risk) so I was able to say that the role would now be better served by someone newer and hungry. I also challenged that it would be ridiculous to keep me in it indefinitely. I moved aside into a different role, he is thriving, and everyone is happy!

I'm a lawyer in a good regional firm with a London office. Senior associate and I work 80% of full time. I largely work my hours. 8:30-2:30.

I had a big issue with pay a couple about 18 months ago and my firm have rectified that and fte is £85k.

I have no interest in going for partner. I'm 46 and accepted that for me work like balance is worth more. I'm lucky in that my DH is the higher earner so have that cushion.

We live in the home countries and London is commutable. Our equivalent house in a nice part of London would be probably x2.5 more.

But in your situation you could walk into any number of good regional firms still earn decent enough money and if you move out of London could probably have a similar lifestyle to now.

There is more to life than the billable hour.

@GreenGarlic your posts are so helpful - thank you so much for taking the time.

I don’t have anyone that can step up - the next most senior person in the team is 4pqe (and underperforming at that - nowhere near SA level). But I will push for them to recruit someone as I think that’s the main problem and also why I’ve had to work so hard. I’ve got my appraisal coming up so it is the right time to have these conversations, but at the moment I also feel that no accommodations they could make for me would be enough/even if they made me partner tomorrow it’s still not what I want for my life. (But is that just exhaustion speaking…I’m logged on now and meant to be working).

I think I’d also like to make a longer term plan that involves something different, so just need to work out what and when is the best time to make a change.

My initial reaction was to say that you should wait to see if the offer of partnership materialises next year but, having read your more recent posts, I think you should leave as soon as possible. You should be able to land a good position in a regional firm, within striking distance of London so that your husband can commute when necessary.

I really sympathise with you OP. US firms are notoriously brutal and the Magic Circle is hardly any better. Someone once said that no one on their death bed wishes that they had spent more time in the office. There is more to life than chargeable hours. I hope you find a position that gives you and your family the right balance.

I am really sorry that you had such a shocking loss this time last year. Did you have professional emotional support after? I can’t see how you were back at work so soon with such a terrible physical experience and risk, never mind emotional. Can I ask if there is a reason you are now not considering a third child?

Also is there any chance that your company knew why you were off work last year and are now holding back the partnership as they are waiting for you to get pregnant again?

@Banjaxxedd I didn’t tell work the reason as I assumed they would blacklist me for it, which is partly why I had so little time off. The bleeding started on a Monday night, I woke up on Tuesday morning literally haemorrhaging, within an hour I was in A&E at death’s door. I got 2 units of blood, had surgery, was discharged on the Wednesday and back at work on the Monday where I did a week of almost all-nighters on an urgent application.

I had found out the previous week that there was no heartbeat and had booked in for medical management so in a way at least I’d had a bit of time to process the grief before the physical ordeal. But honestly I just felt totally numb then and since. I’ve had no help and have barely spoken about it even to DH. In a weird way I felt like I was an idiot for getting pregnant and essentially risking my life and it was all my own fault/I brought it on myself. Typing this now I see it’s totally irrational and I’m probably traumatised but I think I’ve managed to succeed in this environment for so long because I’m used to just pushing through when things are tough.

I used to think my resilience was a blessing but now I think I’ve been an idiot. (I’m at the office now btw).

There’s so much suffering here that you are still carrying and these unprocessed traumas just get heavier the longer we carry them. There is also so much negative judgment of yourself - it’s quite harsh. I see a lot of over-responsibility for a dreadful loss but also for picking up the workload of an inadequate team member and being unsupported by your boss. I am not surprised that you are on the brink being squeezed and burdened in every aspect of your life. I think you could really benefit from some high quality professional emotional support right now to process your challenges and give you the light and space to make the best decisions for you and your family going forward.

Fellow city lawyer in US law firm here and so much of what you say resonates. I consider myself to be a mentally tough and resilient person but this last year I have been driven to the edge by ridiculous deadlines, lack of associate support (I also am counsel) and the game of thrones shenanigans amongst partners re claiming credit for clients I brought into the firm/ team. Although my children are much older, I decided I was no longer willing to compromise my mental and physical health for the dangling carrot of partnership. Am now leaving few-earning for a knowledge management role with another law firm with in uplift in salary (albeit the lost opportunity for partnership). Is a KML role something you would consider? It may be more remunerative than in-house and you would be able to continue to focus on black letter law.