Bullying at work... does it ever work out?

[BrightSideOfTheMoon]

I'm not going into details because it's not my story to tell, but I'm supporting a friend and everything I'm reading around this seems to be doom-laden.

Does is always end in resiging/ going off sick/ being miserable forever?

Well as with most things in life…. The devil is in the details, of which you have provided almost none!

It doesn’t need the details for people to be able to give their experiences of whether bullying every works out.

I’ve had a couple of experiences when I was younger, in the end it was easier to quit. If the person is much more senior to them, your friend is unlikely to have it resolved and stay in her job.

The difficulty is, if both people remain, that relationship will always be problematic even if the bullying stops. The best solution is for the bully to quit or be sacked, but that’s not easy to do either.

They could raise a grievance but depends - difficult to prove often and can be even worse if it’s your manager bullying you as often they are protected! My colleague brought up a grievance against our manager and was out the door after it had been partially upheld and they got an agreement so sometimes it can leverage a settlement discussion. I had wanted to raise a grievance but didn’t because of what happened to my colleague. I was made redundant eventually but HR had advised starting a without prejudice discussion but got a payout regardless. My manager was protected by the leadership team as it was clear they were brought in to fire and save money. They tried it be underhand means ie bullying ie over magnifying small issues, undermining me, asking mentors for feedback. They wanted to save money in my place but might not be the same situation for your friend. However I wish I hadn’t stood for it.!

Well it can but it depends on a multitude of factors. including:

Is it objectively bullying (as opposed to eg legitimate performance management) and is there evidence that can be pointed to of it happening.

How is the HR culture - are grievances taken seriously or fig leaf. Do people the employer want out just get managed out? Would the behaviours be in accordance with the employer culture or outside of it. Does the individual have 2 years service.

How important to the cause are the individuals involved, how easily can they be replaced and what more senior support do they have.

It depends which one it is I think:

Targeted picking on someone specific for no reason and treating everyone else fine - that isn't going to have a happy ending, as a pp says the relationship will always be awkward.

A manager who just doesn't have great people skills and is awful to everyone in the team - there is hope for them to improve 😀

It also depends if the person knows they are doing it. Because that suggests some element of self control.

The person bullying is senior to my friend and in the direct chain of management. So I can't see this working out if both stay. Utterly horrible situation.

The bullying accusation is used far too easily these days and that makes it extremely difficult to deal with properly. Of course there always has to be clear evidence. I know of a case where there was a performance problem and then the person involved accused their manager of bullying. In reality that person was the one doing the bullying and had targeted several others in the team as well. Nothing ever came of it because there was no solid proof and in the end many people including the manager left.
I would suggest your friend starts looking for a new job.

I was actually bullied myself in a previous job. Luckily it was a short term contract, so I could just about bear it. I realised quite early on that the bully had form and that the behaviour was known by management, but strangely enough once I knew that I realised I didn't need to take it personally and it was more of a nuisance. Also I knew I was leaving.

I think the best you can do as someone who isn’t a colleague, and has no idea of what goes on and has never even met the manager, is to just listen to your friend.

Wise words. You never really know unless you are there!

yeah, I moved jobs in the end, much better. Although I did have a respite from it when covid lockdown came along.

Is it objectively bullying (as opposed to eg legitimate performance management) and is there evidence that can be pointed to of it happening.

This is critical in my opinion - having been involved on all sides of such allegations. I have all too often heard (probably about 50% of cases) people say they are being bullied when they really aren't - there are either real issues with them, or they can't get what they want. If I had a £1 for everyone facing any form of disciplinary / performance process who immediately claimed it was bullying, my retirement would be much better funded!

Setting aside that, in all honesty no, I don't think it often ends happily, even if you have absolute proof. And you have to be resilient and tough to get through a grievance in most workplaces - many people are simply give up because it's easier. But if someone is going down this route - evidence, evidence, evidence. And even with that, be prepared to "lose" - either you will be moved to another role, or offered a pay off (which will never be as much as you think it ought to be).

Sorry, that's depressing, but it's my genuine experience.

It worked out for me. I (senior role in large organisation) was bullied by my Senior Leadership Team level manager, I ended up taking two months off and when I came back to work moved temporarily at my request to a project role well away from the bully. He left the organisation a few months after that, I moved back to my permanent role and everything did actually go back to normal.

Two things made the difference. First I was well regarded by other members of SLT, so they were minded to look after me. But more importantly, he was causing problems everywhere, including with other SLT, and so had to go.

That's good to hear, @DistractMe, though I'm sorry you had to go through that.

Did you request the move without having to go through any offiacial process?

Well I was signed off work for a couple of months, so there was some occupational health process because of that. But the move was my idea and something I proposed to the Director of HR, who I think was relieved to have a solution that would get me back to work.

I was also fortunate that this project was crying out for someone to help develop it and I had previous experience of this type of activity.

I think it was a unique situation tbh.

I fought back against every instance of bullying, refused to be quiet about how I was treated and raised a grievance as well. I also had time off due to work related stress and was very open about the reasons for that.

I was moved to another manager after multiple complaints and now the original bully has left and like PP, things have gone back to normal. In addition, there are a number of work processes that have changed so that things that happened could not be repeated by someone in that position.

But it was horrendous whilst it was going on.

@Willquery123 sorry you also had to go through that. Well done for fighting back - though it does sound horrendous.

(Why do people think this sort of thing is ever ok?)

Where bullying happens, nobody thinks it's OK. They think that the fight isn't worth it. And they may be right. I was a manager and a union rep. So represented members alleging bullying. Accused of bullying myself. And also bullied by a manager who wanted me out. I knew how to fight back. I literally had a years worth of recordings of disability discrimination. Senior managers surrendered before the first hearing. It was still me that was moved. To be fair I got a great new manager and a role I loved. That's not the point - she was not even reprimanded. She continued in her role with not a single thing on her record.

I'm an obstinate, stubborn bugger. But I know why people walk away. It had nothing to do with thinking it's OK. It's got everything to do with surviving.

'It's got everything to do with surviving'. Ain't that the truth! Tell your friend to leave
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This has happened to me a couple of times. I just looked for another job and moved on as soon as I could. I wouldn’t bother going the grievance route.

I was bullied out of my last job and I did end up resigning having been off sick for a couple of months. Long term it’s been a good thing that I got out rather than fight it any further because mentally I massively struggled while still there and for a long time afterwards. I do carry resentment even now though and I’m over two years out of the place. I struggled with quite severe depression at the time of leaving and have ongoing PTSD. There are times when my anxiety is through the roof and I overthink pretty much everything.

I don’t know that I have any good advice really tbh. It’s a long road though and even if your friend leaves their job the need for support won’t just end then. If you are in a position to keep being there, prepare for the long haul. I crashed mentally when I got out, which I still now think was because I’d been living on the edge of my nerves for over a year, crying day in day out, and I just didn’t know what to do with those feelings.

I was bullied at work and it was really traumatic. Others could see it but not one of them spoke up for me and they are still not very pleasant to me. I think the way other people behaved in my situation was the thing that upset me the most as sometimes they seemed quite gleeful. I think they were glad to not be the target and still tend to either ignore me or make shitty comments in front of the bully. I’m really struggling despite being in a new team as I sit directly behind the old team and one in particular has this way of interupting conversations between me and my new team (who are lovely) even to the point of physically standing between me and them when I am talking to them and I feel so crap and awkward every time it happens. If I could leave I would cos it’s almost 3 years of not looking forward to going to work. I would love to be happy again.

They sound like cunts. Top tip - observe what is happening out loud. So when she is standing in front of you say 'you are standing in front of me' 'you are interrupting us' etc. Firm and neutral voice. And repeat. Better yet, get a pen out and note it down too. Tell her that too. 'Just noting down that you are standing between me and my team Glynis at Tuesday 11am. And repeat. Every. Single. Time.

@PhilippaGeorgiou I meant, why do people think its ok to bully? It must be obvious in many situations that the behavioir is causing distress.