Why is it so hard to get rid of NHS staff who take the pi** with sickness

[Danijane]

Just wondering why NHS trusts don't seem to get very firm on staff who take the piss with sickness leave?
I work on a busy admin team where staff often say "ill just go off sick if X happens..". Like going off sick (often longterm) is the solution to any problem at work.
Theres 1 girl on the team (single mum with no local family in UK) who goes off sick for several weeks every school holiday period. She's just done it again as her daughter finishes school this week. So that will be likely a couple of months off with "stress".
Another woman on the team who lives with her single mum daughter and 2 young grandkids also "gets sick" every school holiday and festive period, also for several weeks at a time. Her daughter works high power job including lots of travel.
Our manager recently said how nice it would be get time off over Xmas for a change and I asked why not book it then. She replied that she can't because the other senior on our team will be off sick... She always is off sick at Xmas but manager is frustrated as said can't do anything about it, even though it's a clear pattern.
How can this be the case? I mean why can't management do anything about persistent piss takers?
Is this an issue right across the NHS?

Is it all sick leave, or is some of it parental leave to which parents are entitled?

Oh thats interesting, have you thought that through?

Funny how a few years ago it was NHS staff saving lives and coping with unbelievable trauma & death.... now its a bunch of public sector work shy arses who if they become ill, shouldn't get any pay.

Fwiw the best sick scheme i ever had was with a private sector company, we had fantastic productivity and hugely profitable.

Really... the heavily unionised Nissan plant in Sunderland was the most productive and efficient in Europe, for many years in a row.

Same with Honda in Swindon.

Poor productivity and efficiency is usually because of bad management and leadership.

The fish rots from the head down!

Erm yes I know but I wasn’t asking from a managerial view, i was asking how coworkers know why colleagues are off and taking the piss unless they sit in on their return to work meetings.

How would you know if they were taking the piss or not even if you did sit in on the return to work meetings?

Probably yea! Just seems counterintuitive. Puts stress on everyone else then they could leave due to the stress of having to do their job and someone else’s. Should get rid of the bad apple before it spreads

It is everywhere. There should be a limit to paid sick leave.

Bobbins.

Go on, back that up with some evidence, happy to recall my declaration of bobbins if you can.

In my experience of managing sickness within an NHS trust as a senior manager, these were the main issues that combined to create a perfect storm.

Full pay for 6 months. Longer if deemed to be an industrial injury ie caused by work.
Heavily unionised
Policies designed to support frequent lengths of sickness in the way they could be interpreted.
Risk averse trust, specifically, in my trust, HR managers who always had an eye on avoiding employment tribunals.

Water industry, Railways, HS2, Hinkley... numerous private companies where council services outsourced - prove your statement to be utterly false.

Poor management in all the above are to blame.

You all moan until you need it, terrible mental health issue, cancer, neuro. Be smug and judging.

It’s so frustrating having to jump through so many hoops with recruitment and then the person goes off sick. I’d rather just have a heavier workload (and get some of their salary). People are so flaky and disappointing.
Also, I’m not sure what happens if someone has a long term condition that means their doctor always signs them off for months, and then they have the usual things that people go off sick for on top of that. Plus the odd few days for stress. It’s often easy to reach the threshold for occupational health but then a phased return means just a big hassle for the manager and everyone else. I am of the 2 paracetamol and battle through mentality; I’ve found that NHS employers expect about a 5% sickness rate with no questions asked (non patient facing).

The NHS is badly managed when it comes to employee sickness - sick pay is generous. If employees claim stress which they often do managers are reluctant to challenge this as they don't want to be involved in an employment tribunal. I realize there is genuine stress amongst NHS employees but others do use it as an excuse for sickness as they know it will go unchallenged.

To further answer your question OP - yes it was rife where I was and always the usual suspects.

Ex manager in the nhs here. I feel we should report it as a serious concern to the nhs fraud team, because that’s what it is. They will investigate and act from a different angle to what the manager on the ground will. Policies for sickness are supposed to be supportive but ultimately the manager decides if a situation is sustainable or not and gets their director and hr support to help sort it. Incredibly hard sometimes while we are all just fire fighting to get the job done. I’ve had to have words with someone for working while off sick. They stopped their activities, played the system a bit but left a short while after. If managers are bold and bring these things up, they can stop them, but often managers aren’t trained in how to be cut throat and assertive enough.

My HR lead told me that the trust I worked for had many staff that called in sick when they had run out of money. Couldn’t afford to travel to work at the end of the month. What can you do.

I don’t think people are doubting those in genuine need but as with any policy or benefit, there are always going to be the piss takers who take advantage.

My sister is a nurse and goes off sick constantly, when she was pregnant she barely went in because she said ‘it’s protected’ and she couldn’t get in trouble. She’s kept going up the bands though despite never being in….

@KayMarie121 No manager should keep supporting a “sick” employee when they strongly suspect they are not. A lengthy sickness record of a few days here, a few days there, on repeat, is cause for concern and does warrant management intervention. We keep finding more and more reasons why people want time off but no one ever thinks of the patients or the public. The managers don’t even think of the “sick” persons colleagues who have to cover or the expense of using agency staff. It’s simply not on. Obviously support is fair enough in some cases but the contract with the employer is work in return for money. Not no work in return for money and let your colleagues do even more. They have the right to be considered too.

You mean like all the people who moan about the police - until they need them?

Maybe you’re saying that no public sector workers can be criticised in case we need them at some point.

Or is it just the NHS that no one can criticise?

FFS 🤦‍♀️

Happens on the ward where I work. Two of my colleagues regularly go sick for several weeks. They play the game as they know exactly how long to leave between bouts of ‘sickness leave’. One even boasted how she had decorated her entire house whilst off! The NHS really need to get tougher on people like this.

In same situation

I remember many, many years ago a friend of mine who worked as a nurse said that there were certain people in her department / ward that routinely took sick leave because they were ‘entitled’ to it. They literally saw it as part of their holiday allowance and so would just take it off, without a moment’s pause for thought or consideration over the effect it had on their colleagues. It was an incredibly frustrating situation which must have been going on well over a decade ago. It doesn’t sound as if anyone has got a grip on it and I am appalled that tax payer’s money is being wasted on these piss-taking grifters.

You're absolutely right, I know people who treat sick leave like annual leave. It's a pity as there are always some who will take advantage but it's really up to Managers to manage that, otherwise it creates a toxic environment

It's obviously bad in the NHS, but it goes much further than that. I remember my FIL telling me about the large company where he worked - going back decades now - where the union boss would actually come around and demand to know why people hadn't taken all of their sick leave 'entitlement', and ordered them to 'be off sick' for a week or so of his choice.

It was indeed seen as part of their annual leave entitlement - and not taking it was cosying up to the management (the enemy) and not supporting their colleagues who either did need the paid sick time or, I'm guessing more likely, didn't but took it anyway, and making them look bad.

They would also insist that, if the 'main' worker (electrician, engineer or similar) was off sick or on holiday, his 'mate' (assistant) couldn't possibly come in either and do any other separate jobs (organising, admin, planning or whatever) independently - so it was already a 2-for-1.

Unions have done so much essential good for us all; but there is always the danger that some people will royally take advantage - and undermine the purpose for (and the retention of) all of our so hard-won vital rights.

Because of widespread abuse of workplace sick pay policies, we're already in a situation now, across the board, whereby the default assumption when somebody calls in sick is that they are lying. It makes things doubly hard for people who do genuinely have serious recurring health problems and are written off as serial advantage-takers.

People will hark back to 'the old days' when, if you didn't turn up for work, you didn't get paid. They will cite far fewer people being off sick in those times as 'proof' that loads of people nowadays are swinging the lead; when in reality, back then, a great many people who really shouldn't have been at work would go in anyway, because they simply could not afford to lose the pay.