Why is it so hard to get rid of NHS staff who take the pi** with sickness

[Danijane]

Just wondering why NHS trusts don't seem to get very firm on staff who take the piss with sickness leave?
I work on a busy admin team where staff often say "ill just go off sick if X happens..". Like going off sick (often longterm) is the solution to any problem at work.
Theres 1 girl on the team (single mum with no local family in UK) who goes off sick for several weeks every school holiday period. She's just done it again as her daughter finishes school this week. So that will be likely a couple of months off with "stress".
Another woman on the team who lives with her single mum daughter and 2 young grandkids also "gets sick" every school holiday and festive period, also for several weeks at a time. Her daughter works high power job including lots of travel.
Our manager recently said how nice it would be get time off over Xmas for a change and I asked why not book it then. She replied that she can't because the other senior on our team will be off sick... She always is off sick at Xmas but manager is frustrated as said can't do anything about it, even though it's a clear pattern.
How can this be the case? I mean why can't management do anything about persistent piss takers?
Is this an issue right across the NHS?

You sound like what we need here in my service currently

Return to work interviews....not a snatched moment. Every single one is a sit down, time made inconvenient chance to look me in the eye and discuss your sickness.

I genuinely care about my staff and will listen and sympathise. I'll make offers to help you through personal crisis. All sorts of support can be offered. Malingerers do eventually feel guilt. The kindness starts to feel very uncomfortable if you're not genuine. It starts to feel like killing with kindness. They also know after every single sickness they will meet with me and have to lie about their illness....lie to my face. It is very very helpful. Offers support to the genuine and is a mirror to the others.

I experienced this in a temporary job working for a London borough council many years ago. As I was leaving one Friday afternoon I said goodbye to one of my colleagues with a cheery “see you Monday”, she replied saying she was off the following week, I asked if she was going anywhere nice, I was quite shocked when she told me she was off using her ‘sick’ leave. She admitted she wasn’t ill but everyone was allowed up to two weeks off sick on full pay, so she was using it. The week she returned another colleague in the office took her two weeks. Unbelievable. There was so much wastage in that department and so many dodgy practices, and my council tax was paying for it. I escaped into the private sector where people actually had a conscience and worked for their living, rather than spending their time trying to take advantage of a very weak system and poor management.

It's the same in education. We had a teacher who was consistently off sick on a Friday. She also went off for significant periods with various illnesses. Apparently she did it at her previous school too.

Shes now moved on and her first term there.....went off sick.

It’s unbelievable with the NHS!

@sallstermYou monitor work and sickness patterns. Even if they are repeatedly sick, they are not working. They are causing disruption and not doing what they are contracted to do. Most firms cannot afford passengers who don’t put the effort in when others do. You can say someone isn’t up to the job if they are constantly absent.

Having children is an issue with sourcing childcare for a 24/7 working pattern my aunt was a nurse her husband was self employed so they could make it work we have teachers in our family who struggled with childcare there husband went self employed too because they can make it work that way it's actually common for parents to struggle getting childcare because you can't just say to them sorry I can't work over Christmas in a job that stays open over Christmas

I deal with these instances. I very much stand by my statement.

Even in the few areas that policies aren’t truly terrible - they are easily circumvented by lodging grievances and dignity at work complaints the second someone tries to enforce them. You then can refuse to engage on the basis of work related stress. Your union will support you. Throw in an allegation or two of discrimination (pick any kind - it doesn’t need to be well founded), and you can get paid in full for months. Then you return for a week, claim that someone was rude to you and so was discriminating against your mental health, and the whole thing restarts. For fun you then lodge a subject access request to try and dig up anyone making comments that could relate to you, which you then take out of any context in order to go to ACAS/lodge further grievances and complaints.

Again - I actually see this in action.

I’ve seen NHS managers driven to despair through the sheer stress and workload of having to deal with just one of these people. It can take years.

I wonder if the DOGE thingies that Reform are saying they’ll apply to the finances and efficiency of Reform controlled councils will consider the cost and extent of staff absence. Not that I think for one second that the DOGE approach will either be done properly or transparently, nor will it magically find money being spent unnecessarIly on services, but you could argue that councils running costs could be managed better… just a thought.

Wonder if the colleague bullying me is on this thread as I've returned from absence today to find she's been spreading "reasons" (utter nonsense) about why I've been off sick around anyone who'd listen.

No dearie, the reason I've been off sick is because you've destroyed a job I loved to the point I was so depressed I nearly flung myself off a motorway bridge - and I've still only taken 3 weeks off and hauled my arse back to work for more of the same nonsense from you.

If management got tough on the bullying incompetents... I can dream.

I think the nhs, and other public sectors should start paying SSP instead of staff getting full pay.

I hope you’re feeling better x

t seems to be a public sector problem. My DH works in the public sector- local government and he says the only way they can get rid of you here is if you die or leave. Basically it’s almost impossible to sack someone

The difficulty is getting rid of someone not very good who has been there a long time. it's often too expensive to get rid. Lots of people know they are not doing so well so go off sick, get the union involved & then get a payout to go quietly.

Totally agree with this. The issue with public sector is the unions. Because they have Union support they know every trick in the book and work their way around them all.

I'm not anti Union. I'm anti unions being used to make frivolous complaints to avoid work. It's not supporting the people who are doing two jobs to cover the lazy people who are stealing a wage.

@OxfordInkling I too have seen managers who burn out with the sheer effort of using policies which are badly written, out of date, 20,000 caveats and get outs and just support the wage thief. HR are risk averse and don't have to manage the result of missing staff. Attending numerous meetings re HR is their job....they don't go back to cover a clinical workload and write up the meeting meticulously. They wander off feeling job done.

We need to take the HR role away from clinical managers and give it to people who have a job plan that allows for it....like a whole dept devoted to lets say....HR but not obviously HR because they will frequently tell you its not their job.

A simple move to standard SSP in the NHS would save millions. I work in a subcontracted area of the NHS, our staff get SSP after 3 days, we have no problems with sick leave. When I worked for the NHS we has sickness pay but it only kicked in after being off for 4 weeks, since I am technically self employed I only used it once when I had breast cancer and was off for 4 mnths. I used to have insurance to cover my income but again rarely used it.
If you only get paid when you turn up it helps you prioritise work.

Im now retired on my big fat NHS pension, the size of which depended on my total lifetime earnings so it was a benefit to work rather than be off sick.

Good idea. That will really help with the recruitment and retention problems. 🙄

The prolonged bureaucracy around managing sickness which as others say becomes a full time job managing the ensuing grievances and use of every policy they can squeeze some life out of is the main reason I don't use HR and use softly softly techniques like return to work interviews and meticulous documentation of support offered, conversations held....etc. Having facts exposed and mirrored back to them works wonders.

They obviously avoid and are evasive...unavailable for arranged meetings...no problem I'll rearrange...unavailable because the car broke down...I'll come to you....unavailable because they choose to return when I'm on holiday...I'll come in or delay the meeting until my return. It's such a pattern that it's immediately obvious that someone is faking and can't face looking me in the eye.

@countingdowns Not sure where some of you work, but capability is a route for getting rid of someone. You must demonstrate training and help to improve but if it fails, of course someone can be let go! It’s a failure of management for this to continue and how disrespectful to other workers. Excessive sick also. They are not fulfilling their contract ffs!

I'm NHS and theoretically I'd support limiting SSP to come in after 4 weeks however... It is tricky because you'd have the really financially stressed coming in to vulnerable patients despite infectious diseases.

The NHS employs a huge number of women. The proportion of women related health issues is bigger than men thanks to pregnancy, periods, menopause and the burden of single parenting and infectious children. So on balance no ...I think it would impact women more then men and thus I don't support.

I agree, needs to be done. My post was to say that from the inside we know that too and sometimes it actually happens. It’s a myth to say that it’s IMPOSSIBLE to get rid of public sector folk because of our contracts, the unions etc. In my experience it’s the capacity needed to get it done then replace them that is a significant factor to throw into the mix.

& i used too as well, as did my mum.

People get the sack for excessive sick & sometimes they even win their unfair dismissal tribunal, go figure - there are policies in place or are you saying GPs are complicit in fraud?

My trust was red hot on to point of pissing people off who frequently caught illnesses from patients.

It’s not difficult if you follow policy correctly. We have dismissed a number of staff in recent years for sickness absence but you have to be on top of your paperwork and meetings etc to have a clear case

@jasflowersThe nhs has to follow its procedures with regard to sickness dismissal or capability. Not doing so is when tribunals overturn decisions. The employers have to follow policy.

The contract is a contract to work in return for money. Not stay at home sick in return for money.

It's no coincidence that the heavily unionised workplaces are the ones with the worse sickness, productivity and efficiency.