slow quiet one, and the micromanager

[snoopsy]

I manage a large team, all remote. We have a new admin person who hasn't been with us long (7 weeks). The new admin is pleasant, but has a very quiet personality. I have done some of her training and she is slow and methodical. The manager who manages the admin is a hard-worker but known to be difficult - likes control, gives little leeway on methods used - its her way or nothing, expects people to operate at 100% all the time etc. calls people outside of working hours (I have put a stop to this one).

The previous admin only lasted 8 months before handing in their notice as they felt the pace the manager was setting was too fast, and there was too much to juggle. As a result, I simplified some processes, and automated others to make the workload more manageable and less hectic. I removed a small area of responsibility too so I am confident the job spec is do-able.

I wonder if the admin potentially has some health issues which means she's having to go to the bathroom. She has mentioned some auto-immune/allergy issues, but has not been specific. I am thinking a side-effect of her health issues may be IBS or a more serious digestive issue, but this is me guessing. We are all remote so its difficult to know what people are doing.

I suppose I have 2 questions:
I have no problem with the admin being methodical, but she is taking nearly 3 hours to do a 30-45 minute admin task that I know she can do competently. After 7 weeks I know she has mastered how to do it as I have done some of her training. I need to work out if the admin a) has health issues she is too shy to disclose, or b) is actually this slow, or c) is doing something else with her time.

If during those 3 hours she was in the bathroom for some time then I don't mind, but I do need to know. There are ways to work around her health issues as we are all remote, but I can't put anything in place unless I know. I have a reputation for being kind and understanding (or so I am told). How do I approach this? I do not want to say "it took you 3 hours to do this. what's the problem?" It would come across that I am monitoring her, which is wrong.

The second issue is how I deal with the "difficult" manager. Their manager skills only work with the kind of employee who works like a robot and has perfect attention to detail. I need to speak to this person about how we onboard new people and make sure we are doing everything possible to help them learn their job. The manager has talked about "testing" the new admin (eg setting them up to fail) and won't entertain the idea that there could be another issue. They are convinced this person is doing something else with their time (eg watching TV). They are frustrated and don't have the patience to realise that after 7 weeks, if its not working they need to employ different methods to solve the problem of slowness (a shared things to do list, for example) before we judge or jump to conclusions.

That's very kind. I haven't been one for a long time as I'm now self employed, but I do like to think I had a good reputation and relationship with people I managed when I did.

it is also, of course, a lot easier to be a manager when all you're doing is responding to queries from someone else who is actually doing the work and all I have to do is give an opinion via my online persona!

Did you discuss these things with her? Did you carry out any tests at pre-interview or interview stage to check for things like attention detail, data literacy etc? Does she have much admin experience and good references?

wow! I’m surprised. You seem brilliant on the basis of how you’re trying to help the OP!

This is a good way of phrasing it.

In my experience though, people take wildly different times to complete admin tasks.

Attention to detail really is something that comes naturally to a person - I believe its in the brain wiring. I have often found that you can pull someone up on attention to detail, and it will be OK for a few weeks, and then the inconsistency creeps back in. Attention to detail is an executive function. Remedial action is an executive function. Some people are strong on these, and some aren't.

While I 100% agree that attention to detail comes naturally to some people and less so to others, I disagree that it is a something that cannot be solved for in the long term. I am not naturally someone who is good at detail. I am better at big picture stuff, instinctively understanding the underlying issues etc. But I am also in a job that requires a certain amount of attention to detail at specific times.

I have been forced to learn techniques and tricks to manage this. For example, when I prepare documents for clients, I do my best to build in time to check my work in a completely fresh way - either by getting someone else to review it and/or by stepping away for a day or more and returning with fresh eyes. I have been known to read my work out loud to myself to spot these mistakes.

When working on projects I quite often include a long list of items on a to do list for myself so that I can check it and make sure I am not forgetting x or y.

In my first "big" job ie a step up on relatively junior roles, at my first performance review, my boss flagged the issue of attention to detail. We discussed it and plans to fix it. By my next performance review, she agreed the problem was no longer an issue and congratulated me on my efforts.

It can be done.

The bigger challenge is someone who is not good at attention to detail but also does not think it's important side-eyes DS

I didn't interview her as I was on holiday when her second interview was scheduled. It is very hard to check for attention to detail in an interview and it can be unfair if people suffer with nerves. It is not common for this level of position to require a practical task at interview, and our HR team would need to approve it. The fact that someone has held down jobs doing something similar indicates that they can do basic admin. Almost all employers in the UK provide references that are simply a statement confirming dates and job title. Nobody wants to risk giving an honest reference. Is that question serious? She has relevant work experience and claimed she left her last job due to relocation. She has moved around a bit, which was a red flag for me, so during her first week I chatted to her, the usual stuff... what industry have you come from? what did you do day-to-day and she gave all the right answers.

your job is very very different to her's. she is cutting corners instead of following steps. this is an admin position processing info for another team to action. she has a list of steps that need to be done and today I realised that she is simply not doing them. there are a few steps built into the process to catch errors and she is not taking advantage of them. I think she is just hoping that the next team fix anything that's wrong. its nice of you to tell me that you have learned attention to detail, but I am talking generally and there are people who simply can't.

Sounds like she’d actually benefit from being micromanaged a bit more TBH OP.

I do think WFH is playing a part in this. If you all worked in an office, the team who need to do the next step would be shouting over “Oy, get that info uploaded now Janice, we need to get XX done.” And she’d realise she needs to get a bloody move on.

I would argue she CAN learn it, but after 7 weeks, I think you're right - it doesn't sound like she wants to. Even worse would be if she's the kind of person who thinks the routine and process is silly/irrelevant/tedious/pointless as they are 100% never going to be interested in working on getting it right.

I think I go back to my original post - start laying out, 100% clearly, exact expectations at the prioritisation meeting (and yes, it's a bit irritating if she should already know this) but then you have the opportunity to go back, immediately, when it's not done right or on time.

Yes but we do all WFH and I can't and won't micromanage in the mid or long term. If she's not got the maturity to WFH then she's not the right fit for our team. Anyone in the first few weeks of a job will be eager to get things right (whether in the office or remotely), its just a natural thing to do when you're new. If I am not seeing it now, I am not sure I will ever see it. Everyone else in the team works competently from home so she needs to be able to do so aswell. If she can't, then she's not the right fit.

It sounds like you are so keen not to be a micromanager than you are too distant from this one member of staff, who needs additional help. Some people need more hands on managing, like being told how fast things should take, and having checks throughout the day.

some people, also, are just not up to jobs like this and she may be one of them. If she is cutting corners, doing things wrong, and taking four times longer than she could to do them, I would honestly be looking at capability

I would already be calling in the afternoon and saying ‘Helen this step was discussed - you know it is important right - why did you not do it today?’

So you’d potentially give her the heave ho instead of giving her proper instructions and feedback and telling her your expectations. That sounds a bit unfair?

are you reading a different thread? I am definitely not distant from her. I don't think I can go on explaining myself to people who aren't reading the post.

No, I’d spend another month giving her very clear instructions and kindly helping her step by step, and if she didn’t improve then I would give her the heave Ho. Not everyone can do every job and not everyone is detail-oriented enough to do this sort of work

I don’t mean distant - that was the wrong word. I mean you seem very keen not to micro manage, which is the right thing with a lot of staff of course but probably not with her

I would lose my mind if I had to do everything step by step for another month. This is already week 7. There are some data checks that need to be done as part of the processing. They are clear and structured. There is a system.

this is what I realised today.... sorry if the analogy annoys anyone.

Imagine these data checks are like preparing microwave meals. There are perhaps 10 steps. One of the steps is "pierce the film with a fork". You explain the huge importance of such a small step. It doesn't take long, but its important. You watch them do it competently a number of times. Then you leave the person alone to make a meal; different ready-meal contents, different meal time, but same steps. Everything seems OK.
Then the person causes an explosion a few times because after a few days they start to skip this step thinking its not important. You speak to them and write out the instructions another way, with words and pictures. You remind them why we pierce the film. You think perhaps they don't understand the build-up of steam or how a microwave works so you spend time explaining that so you are certain they understand the context. Sometimes they do pierce the film but then they forget to turn on the microwave so they serve it cold. Sometimes they half pierce the film and serve it too hot, but that's sort of OK. Sometimes they pierce the film with the fork, that's normal and its OK, you wonder why you were checking on them. Sometimes they randomly decide without warning to use a straw and they don't understand why it won't pierce the film. They don't check with you even thought they know they can message you at any time. They don't refer to their notes.
Sometimes they call you to say there's no film to pierce and you realise that they haven't gone to the fridge to take out the microwave meal. Sometimes they try to get clever and cut corners, and they heat 2 meals at the same time. They end up mixing the contents, one was vege and one was meat so it was important they were kept separate.

I really do feel for members of teams like this.

Absolutely no solid leadership

A senior manager of a “large team” spending her entire day on mumsnet asking for guidance about how to deal with a new junior administrator that she doesn’t even line manager, because she’s not been properly managing the line manager in question who does report to her.

What a shit show

I suspect this new starter will scarper like the previous one!

😆

bloody hell. Just reading the microwave analogy

what hope is there?!

Oh my goodness look at that update! It’s very telling. 😳

How is it telling?

I don’t know why the OP is getting so much grief with this question. Firstly people saying ‘that’s whT you get with wfh’ as if she can change this when she is presumably not the CEO; then ‘fgs get off mumsnet’ when she is here asking for help. can you explain why you think this is such a ridiculous situation to ask about that it is worth mocking?

You're wasting way too much time on this.

Let her manager get on with managing her. The admin hasn't disclosed any health issues to HR so stop considering them.

The most likely reason she is slow is she just isn't good at the job - doesn't care about accuracy or not able to be accurate, or just not concentrating because at home. 'Quiet' doesn't equal conscientious.

Why are there so many rude responses to OP? I don’t have management experience so sorry probably no helpful advice, but the length of time to complete tasks and AND doing them badly is very concerning.
I
would address it fairly directly but kindly. Is there a “buddy” she can share screens with to oversee the tasks one more time after it’s been raised as an issue?