Mums forced into office by big UK company?

[MM90]

I work for a big, well-known company. The bosses are considering plans to force all colleagues to come to the office 3 days a week. They are thinking about checking our turnstile data individually and disciplining anyone who doesn’t come in for 3 days every week, whether they need to be there or not. I thought this was the 21st century where working women have the chance to create a sensible work / life balance so long as they perform in their job. My line manager gave me a great performance rating during Covid. I have two children under 5 and no family nearby. Any thoughts on this?

I mean, yeah, I lived in London for 15 years and now live just outside it. So I am well aware of its charms, but how you'd live in even zone 3 now on an average/graduate salary, I don't know. Some employers will pay London weighting, and in some professions (financial services etc) you'd be on a decent enough salary, but god knows how young people working in hospitality or doing care work or working for local authorities are expected to manage financially. Everyone on here seems to thinking working in London = a 'City' salary. It doesn't. But then it's equally clear that loads of people on Mumsnet don't actually work.

If you WFM in a commuter town during the pandemic, and had that extra cash in your pocket due to working remotely, and then found yourself forking out £5K a year for an unnecessary RTO because your employer can't manage their staff effectively and has resorted to presenteeism, then you'd see that as a pay cut. I'd be looking for another job in those circumstances.

I work in a supermarket. All the mums managed to come to work during all the lockdowns, no reason why you can’t.

I can only impact directly on my own family, my own organisation and on those where I sit as a non-executive board member.

Dh and I have always tried to split things equally. We shared responsibility for the childcare when dc was little and we shared all of the domestic stuff. I feel like we provided a good model of an equal partnership for our dd.

In my organisation, we have done a huge amount of work around DEI, from training and awareness campaigns to staff forums to mentoring schemes etc. And despite requiring some office attendance, we have given staff a lot more flexibility about working patterns and how they approach their roles. It's a work in progress, but I have definitely seen a shift in the culture over time. More men (including those in my senior leadership team) have come forward to request flexible working arrangements, either to care for their children or for their elderly parents. More women - including women with young children - have been promoted to senior roles etc.

I make no secret of the fact that I also have caring responsibilities and that I sometimes have to work flexibly around these - no longer for my dd because she is grown up now, but for my elderly parents and another elderly relative. I think it's important to model the fact that you can still be in a senior role while carrying out those responsibilities and it makes it much easier for junior staff to ask for adjustments if needed.

As a Board member, I have less direct influence, but I can ask questions about DEI issues and how they are being addressed. I can make sure it stays on the radar of senior managers etc.

In my community, I mentor a teenage girl from a challenging background. I feel like I can at least offer her a model of a woman who has worked hard and successfully combined career and family etc.

So no magic wands but plenty of small incremental gains. What else can you do other than keep chipping away?

Yes, our childcare sector is a nightmare. Through no fault of the people working in it.

I don't love the idea of people looking after small DC whilst working, whether that's what OP was claiming to do or not. But I'm also not sure I'd love the effects of stopping them from doing it either, since we know that childcare allowing parents to work isn't necessarily available and affordable just because it's wanted.

You work. You have not won the lottery. You have earned your money and that’s for you and your immediate family. I would have to address this and say that . I would say i work to provide a certain lifestyle for my children and if im bailing everyone out then they are going to suffer.

I think I would actually make a point at family meals of going up to pay for just my family or asking for the bill specifically for my family . Then go. It’s rude that they are expecting you to pay.

I had similar in the past. I’m by no means rich - I am in a lot of debt and just about cover things sometimes , but some of our outgoings are what some family members / friends see as luxury . For example , we get a few takeaways / meals out. We had 2 cars ( one a company car and one finance ) , we have gym memberships . We have a nice house - rented though - and I do tend to buy nice clothes for my children and have a few designer things ( not high end , more mid ) and I have had comments in the past about this - about how it must be nice to afford it , or if I have ever moaned about things being tight I’ve had family members ( who don’t work so is all benefits , yes they are struggling but especially with my siblings - we all had the same upbringing , I had no head starts - no one paid for me to go to uni , I made the choice to do it, I also work full time and have less quality time with my family because of this ) say to me - how can you say it’s tight , try living my life etc .

We had a very significant thing happen to us that affected our finances massively , something that wasn’t our fault at all. We have got into a lot of debt due to this and it is a struggle right now but even still I have been made to feel as though I am lying and I’m not struggling .

I understand that, but if an employer has determined that, based on the evidence, it is better for business to have people back in the office 3 days a week, then it isn't realistic to expect that they will leave everyone working at home because it makes it easier for that one ND employee. They have to make the best decisions for the business.

Depending on the nature of the business, it might make no difference to have everyone working from home. In which case, it might be be an issue, except perhaps for the ND person who would benefit more from being in the office. The company could save lots of money on rent, utilities etc

But if they have determined that it's better for business to have most staff in the office, then it's better to look at individual adjustments for those staff who need them.

I'm not unsympathetic by the way - I am ND myself and I understand the idea of things being inclusive by design. But ultimately, bosses have a business to run and they have to base their decisions on what the evidence is telling them.

You could start by ensuring you don't make a blanket dismissal of wfh roles as invisible, and instead challenge that attitude if you encounter it. Then you could ensure your attitude to remote working and how it affects women isn't based around an idea of promotion prospects that aren't even wanted by lots of workers anyway.

Which doesn't really affect the point I was making there though? Which is that it's wrong to say that remote work is bad for young workers per se. As with all other age groups, it's good for some and bad for others. The problem is that people have a tendency to assume they/the young people in their in person offices are the default. When in actual fact, the people who are excluded by in person work aren't going to be visible in the first place.

Any thoughts on this?

A few things:

Firstly it depends on your contract/what you were originally recruited to do

Secondly childcare isn't your employer's responsibility

And thirdly, some working mums are doing no favours at all to the group, and then wonder why some employers avoid them like the plague

I have an issue with employees who are looking after their children when they should be 100% focused on work.
Fine if someone is at home to look after them for you.

Great, tell that to those of us who work in the charity/non-profit sectors! Not everyone can have City jobs that pay high salaries🙄

@FyodorDForever I didn't say whether it was fair or unfair, but those costs would be my reality. I personally would be loathe to start paying an extra £800/month to sit in an office and join a Teams meeting that I could join from home, just because someone decided they'd like to see everyone back in the office. I became a parent during Covid and went back part time after Mat leave.

There's also been an insinuation up thread that husbands who don't pull their weight from childcare are "useless". My husband works away Mon-Fri and sometimes deploys for months at a time.

Are your children at home whilst you work OP?

There is plenty of research to back up the idea that remote workers miss out on promotions because of invisibility. And of course, I know that not everyone is interested in promotion, but given that we were talking about the gender pay gap, it was relevant.

It might surprise you to know that I have a whole sub team of staff within my organisation that work 100% remotely. I am not opposed to it in principle in the slightest, I just recognise that it works effectively for some roles and not for others. I have no wish to bring that team back to the office because there would be little benefit in doing so. And yes, we do have to work very hard to ensure that those staff are not "invisible" - it takes extra effort but we put that effort in.

None of that changes the fact that the rest of my team are more productive when they're in the office. They're also happier and retention is better, so I am not going to take lectures from random strangers on the Internet about what works best for my organisation.

@LanaL Wrong thread - I’m assuming you meant to post on the thread where a couple earning £200k has an indiscreet mortgage advisor and a grabby family?

Mums forced into office by big UK company = Mums go to work to do their jobs

Hi OP, unfortunately there are too many people who see having to leave home to go to work as an injustice. Those people fit work around school runs/walking dog/shopping/childcare/hairdressers/dentists/visiting allotments etc etc.My real life experience supports this. Your description of being 'forced' to go back to the office 3 days a week sums it up. I am sure there are people who work optimally at home but they are very much the exception. In contrast there are people who don't work from home who do all of the above (and rightly so) outside of their working hours. I work in a public organisation and have never WFH; my experience of my communication with colleagues WFH largely reflects the above. Too many people see WFH as a right. Emphasises the unfairness/diversity of workforce. What about retail staff/catering/refuse collectors/nurses/teachers/construction workers as some examples?

We have to go in 3 days as a rule, in a legal office even though the job can be done from home. Not unusual.

@IdeallySunnyPlease I mean really? You do like making yourself look like a fool!

I don't get forced days in office - I don't belive it improves productivity. However, if your employer has requested it, there is nothing you can do.

For people talking about childcare, she might not care for them during work hours, instead it might be about the commute.

I'm 100% wfh, and wouldn't want to return to the office because we are a global team (I would be on Teams calls all day as none of my coworkers work in my office) and I would have a 2 hour commute each way.

Not everyone who wfh is lazy/unproductive. Large sections of the world were doing it for years during covid, and businesses were making more profit than ever before.

With respect, that is why people use childminders/breakfast and after school clubs. That is what I've had to do as have many others.

19 pages. The OP isn’t coming back.

'Plenty of research' is very much an overstatement. The picture is complex, not least because the huge change only happened 4 years ago and the impaired access to childcare during the pandemic has had a huge impact on women.

Whether or not your own team happen to be more productive doesn't mean much in a discussion about what we can do on a wider societal level, you random stranger on the internet giving out lectures when people point out that women can't simply opt ourselves out of societal sexism.

Whilst I fully support the benefits of working from home (for anyone irrespective of having a kid), not that long ago you’d have been fully expected to work from the office and sort out childcare so it’s not really unfair, just doesn’t suit your preference.

I use after school club. There is no breakfast club at their school, or a child minder (there’s one in the area who does before school and unsurprisingly is booked up for the forseable!). Which is why I requested wfh. I promise I’m not the only person in this situation.