To be absolutely fed up with NHS staff off sick

[njg616]

I manage a small team and have had several staff take the complete biscuit with sickness.

One took a year off before retirement - we couldn't recruit until she handed in her notice.

One got a similar job while off sick for 6 months, she then went off sick in her new job

Another got the job 'to cover her bills while she recovered from bunion surgery'

Currently I have someone off sick with a history of long and short term sickness. Has been off sick for half the time she's been in her post- 6 months. I follow policy, and refer her to HR who keep giving her more chances.

I find many staff use their NHS salaries while off sick as their sponsorship to do other things in their lives. This cannot be a good use of public funds especially with how things are at the minute.

These staff would not last a minute in the private sector. Sickness records don't seem to matter which to me is a huge indication of a person's commitment and reliability

Interesting you say newer staff were the problem at your place, it was the long-term-ers who were the problem at ours - anyone under 25 was much more concerned they'd lose their job from too much sick, because they had friends in zero hour contracts, multiple roles etc - whereas there were a few people in the long timers who'd argue until they were blue in the face that it is illegal to fire anyone for having too much sick...

Same at my work, 6 months full pay. Amazing how many people make a miraculous recovery right on the 6 month mark, work the minimum time to reset the clock then start again. Also, how many little tummy bugs people seem to have every year that land on Friday's and Monday's.

I really think reducing full pay to 50% from day 1 would dramatically reduce absences and stop the tax payer piss taking.

This is spot on, it's a vicious cycle which directly impacts on non-piss takers. Its terrible for their morale too. Most people have come across a piss taker at some point in their working lives, it's silly to deny it happens. Hard to solve though..

This was my experience too, the people within reach of retirement just hanging on as they had the good old style NHS pension.

Hmm. The majority of those who have never worked for the NHS are saying no, it doesn't happen! Yet the majority of those who do or have worked for the NHS are saying it happens. What can we deduce from that?

So not a generalised nhs staff, you mean your team.

Don't do goady subject lines.

If you're struggling, talk to your boss about getting some temps in to help cover.

All of the above is made so much worse by the levels of sickness across the board.

We had someone who was very vocal about 'you can't be fired for too much sick'.

She got fired.

Manager only had to do it the once, everyone else got the message.

However in 25+ years in the public sector, I've only seen this one manager actually do it.

its not a quick process and you can draw it out by going off with stress as you couldn’t possibly have any meetings or give evidence as you are too distressed.

and your allegation will always be about things said one on one, or will be about insinuations etc.

the trick is to make sure there’s some small truth in the lie and that your opponent has to prove a negative. Eg your manager calls you into a private but informal chat to discuss something you could do better - you come out saying they spoke to you (that’s the truth) but you say they spoke down to you, failed to follow proper processes for staff improvement and that this reflects continued ill treatment since you’ve met them (insert a few other half truths here) which is on account of you pointing out problems/having a protected characteristic/etc etc.

Your employer then has to get both your sides of the story, and interview other people in the team too - which can be even more complicated if you allege other team members are involved.

We don’t have anyone quite as young as under 25, I’d say the majority of out newer staff are 25-35….interestingly because of a massive reorganisation, the dinosaurs amongst us have new t+c, which came in 5 years ago including much better pay than we used to have, and seem to really appreciate them. Meanwhile those who have come in within the last 5years have had the better t+c from the start and just take it as their right.

I mthink I can come to a clear and unequivocal response on this one.

(a) If you were an NHS manager you are a rubbish manager with not a clue about NHS sickness absence policies. The problem is therefore not the staff you recruit, but you. They need a better manager. Or.....

(b) I think this one is fairly clear without stating the the obvious.

NHS is a perfect storm. An enormous organisation with a wide and diverse group of employees who range from the hyper diligent to the super pisstakers. In my experience NHS HR departments are very short staffed and these posts are not attractive to the highly skilled and experienced HR professionals you need in such an organisation. It means that it is hard to either adequately support staff that are sick (with work often contributing to their illness - which is one reason I believe it should remain fairly generous) or manage sickness fraud, grievances, performance or bullying. However arguing the NHS needs more and better paid HR is not a policy I can see been taken up by anyone.

What a load of rubbish. That certainly doesn't happen in our Trust.

Spot on. When I was in the public sector this was well known, in fact a friend of mine took 6 months off on stress (he said he just put an act on with the Dr), came back for a week or so then had another 6 months off.

Another lad who was a heavy drinker took every Monday off "ill" for the 4 years I worked with him. Basically he was hung over from the weekend, nothing was done.

So many naieve people on this thread claiming these people are all actually ill!

You don't need to use your annual leave for a phased return. You need to check the sickness policy.

100% - this perfectly sums it up.

It doesn't happen in your trust doesn't mean it's absolute rubbish. I can assure you I know of at least two people in the last year who have been managed out of their jobs due to excessive sick leave in my trust. And you can't take 6 months sick leave, go back for a week, then take another 6 months. It doesn't work like that.
There will always be the shirkers and malingerers who call in sick at the drop of a hat, and my worst gripe is the ones who come to work, do 4 hours out of a 12 hour shift, then claim to be unwell and go home, thus it doesn't show up as sick leave. My manager is wise to this tactic now and she tells them to take 8 hours annual leave.

GPs are signing these people off as too unwell to work, don’t you need to take it up with them?

The sad thing is colleagues left behind to pick up the pieces and repeatedly cover for absences understandably get fed up and burnt out by it all and go off sick themselves. It is so demoralising and really is the elephant in the room when talking about the issues with NHS.

You can fool a GP if you know the symptoms of stress. They only get a few minutes to deal with you.

also, a GP does not want a fight. Some will refuse to sign you off, but then they face the endless complaints. It takes a strong backbone to say no - and if you do the NHS itself is equally as likely to hang you out to dry for ‘failing your stressed patients’ as it is to support you in your judgment.

@Validus has nailed it.

GP has 10 minutes. They don't want a scene and want you out the door on time. They aren't your employer.

You can also make their lives totally miserable by complaining about them.

And if you really believe you shouldn't be at work, you are probably very convincing.

GP does not want a fight, that is up to your employer.

It’s all true. I’ve worked in the NHS for 30 years and it’s as bad as ever. It’s a shame because the policy supports staff with genuine illness such as cancer or covid damage. But there are a lot of malingerers. Normally it starts with performance concerns being raised. The staff member takes umbrage and goes off with work related stress. It’s much easier for a time pressured GP to sign them off than argue with them. You have people constantly triggering short term (where I am it’s 4 episodes in 6 month) or long term (>28 day absence), 3 long periods of monitoring over 9 months which starts from scratch if they meet a target. Then off they go again. The stress is supported by occ health as a protected characteristic so you have long phased returns and low work targets. The last case we had was on Instagram on multiple holidays while claiming sick pay, which apparently wasn’t unreasonable as was part of their recovery. As a manager who usually has their own clinical work to do too, it’s bloody stressful.

GPs often have to go by what you tell them, especially for conditions which are not easily diagnosed.

But it’s a vicious circle. You have pisstakers abusing the system as well as genuine cases. Then when the remaining staff are under pressure you’ll again get some genuinely sick from the extra workload and then others that see everyone else taking sick leave and deciding if you can’t beat them, join them.

The culture it creates is extremely dysfunctional.

Ooh. This thread is like Tory bingo!