To be absolutely fed up with NHS staff off sick

[njg616]

I manage a small team and have had several staff take the complete biscuit with sickness.

One took a year off before retirement - we couldn't recruit until she handed in her notice.

One got a similar job while off sick for 6 months, she then went off sick in her new job

Another got the job 'to cover her bills while she recovered from bunion surgery'

Currently I have someone off sick with a history of long and short term sickness. Has been off sick for half the time she's been in her post- 6 months. I follow policy, and refer her to HR who keep giving her more chances.

I find many staff use their NHS salaries while off sick as their sponsorship to do other things in their lives. This cannot be a good use of public funds especially with how things are at the minute.

These staff would not last a minute in the private sector. Sickness records don't seem to matter which to me is a huge indication of a person's commitment and reliability

Does the NHS still use Bradford Scale? This caused me an issue.
I was off sick due to being hospitalised, my line manager came to see me on the ward to see how long I would be off work I was feeling. I went back to work the day after I was discharged because i had been told how short staffed we were with me off. I returned too soon and needed to go sick again. Thus two periods of sickness for same illness then I’d also had a precursor incident a few months before meaning I needed two days off but at the time no-one had connected the illnesses, so I’d had 3 lots of sickness
Another member of the team was off sick and she had a lot more time off than me but it was only one period of sickness.

I was disciplined but the other person wasn’t. I felt punished because I’d tried to go in after I was discharged. From then on I decided not to go in until I was 100% because I wasn’t going to be punished for actually making an effort.

@ArnieLinson what happens if they are genuinely unwell during the time after the warnings when they are in with and cannot have further absences?

For those who think it is made up - it’s not.

The instances I have seen go as follows:

1. get NHS job
2. attend work and in week 2 or 3 lodge a grievance alleging that you have been discriminated against/the team is hostile/something has occurred that was wrong (this triggers the disciplinary investigation and grievance processes)
3. go off with ‘stress’ due to said alleged discrimination (they now can’t touch you until their own grievance processes are done)
4. When the investigation finds nothing, appeal it and claim that you’ve been further discriminated against (they still can’t challenge your sick leave)
5. when it all ends, agree to return to work. Turn up for a week or two before claiming you are now being treated badly as retaliation for your complaint, and go off again. Try to make this complaint meet the requirements to be a whistleblower too for extra complexity. (Going off again resets the sickness clock for your sick pay and the new complaint restarts the whole investigation process).
6. rinse and repeat until the employer gives up and literally pays you to leave.

It takes brass balls to pull off, but it does occur.

I really don’t identify with your post op, wherever I worked (and I worked in a lot of different trusts) there was a culture of presenteeism - precisely because of fear of the sickness policys that meant lots of people dragging themselves in to the detriment of their own health…including 1 working in oncology who ended up with a diagnosis of mumps. The nhs has been run on the goodwill of staff for a very long time so I think you are playing the devils advocate somewhat.

But surely you're still in a probationary period if you go off after 2 weeks in post. Most paid sick leave does not start until 6-12 months

there are thousands of nhs staff
dont tar everyone with the same brush.
this thread is such a waste of time

I have first hand experience of this and I agree OP although I know posters who’ve never worked in the NHS will jump on you.

My experience is not of the overworked front line medical staff struggling under the strain but the admin/management side. There is definitely a culture which makes it possible for people to take the piss. Long bouts of sick leave, back to work when their pay is going to be reduced, just for long enough to qualify for full sick pay again.

HR is completely ineffective so management have no support to put in place any sort of plan in place or tackle the issue. Budgets will also not allow for recruiting cover. These individuals would not survive in the private sector. It’s madness.

absolutely
thought covid would change this presenteeism attitude, but No

Funny enough the place my hubby works the amount that applied for a job and then do a couple of days and on sick long term is a bit of a joke

She would go in for the required amount of time she was given at that stage, and when that ends start sick again. What is ‘genuinely ill’ anyway? People will work ill all the time.

Last year she told me she was on whatever stage of absence (cannot remember the actual stage) so couldnt miss work. Then a while later told me she thought she was getting covid. I asked whether she could possibly have some health anxiety and she flew into a rage at me saying she hasnt been sick all year. Then i pointed out the sickness stage she was on…

I had the opposite experience of presenteeism, people stood behind desks, computers off, coats on at 4.55pm so they could leave at 5pm on the dot (not medical or directly client facing).

I likewise fell foul of this as I (mistakenly)thought it was rather better for my respiratory patients for me to have a couple of days off when I was ill with a respiratory illness and not go and give them and other staff my germs (rather than me take 6 months off!). Rather than being managed out on the basis of illness ,I left and my trust lost a highly experienced clinician.now I wish I’d just taken 6 months off because that was apparently more acceptable?

Saying that there is (and always has been) an issue with people abusing the sick pay terms in the NHS isn't tarring everyone with the same brush though. I've worked in 6 NHS organisations and it's been an issue at each of them.

It's perfectly possible to have some staff abusing the system and others being pressured to return to work too early and forced into presenteeism.

@RachelSTG that’s why you have to claim discrimination/bullying or suggest something is wrong in terms of medical care. You then make it clear that getting rid of you will result in a lawsuit and possible bad press.

Wow.

@ArnieLinson just wondered in case she woke up with something she couldn't work with, migraine, broken leg, D and V. I would be worried that I would have to be off during that time when she could have no further absences.

@Snowflakesonhisnose - 100%, it’s the rest of the staff that suffer too as the culture I’ve witnessed means HR are as useless as a chocolate teapot.

This costs the NHS £millions and it's just another example of public sector waste and incompetence. I work for the NHS and I have a clinical staff member off sick with "stress " but she hasn't worked in over 6 months !. The problem is she is still included in my headcount and we cannot replace her until she goes so we use agency staff to cover, which costs a fortune.

I also knew a Paramedic who was off sick for a full 12 months, during which time he set-up his own antiques business. When he finally came back he had the most amazing suntan, which he said he got in his back garden, only it was February. Nobody said a word.

I have a meeting tomorrow morning to sort-out my staffing issues and I'm in no mood to be fobbed off with platitudes, as per..

It's just too easy to take the piss and a lot of ppl do.

Surely it would be a quick process if they're making up a scenario that didn't happen. I am really skeptical that anyone would go off after 2 weeks and make up allegations. Surely that would be quickly quashed

They are not working in the NHS. They are employed by it, off sick and most are working elsewhere whilst off sick - according to OP.

I'm about to go on long term sick, I don't want to and would chop my arm off to go back at work. Due to my situation both HR, Occ. health and my manager have advised long term sickness. Life sometimes, gives you a curve ball that changes everything and it's all out of your control. I've recently been given a very awful, life shattering curve ball - hence long term sick. It's heartbreaking knowing due to stress/anxiety/health I'm not fit for work.

A huge problem is the chronic understaffing in the NHS

A specialist nurse is often the only one providing a service and that service is suspended when the nurse goes on leave

There is often no back up, no colleagues to work with that nurse and the trust/practice are lost without the nurse

Multiply that across all the not particularly niche specialities and you've got a massive problem

Burn out, catching infections from the patients and their own ideopathic health problems all create absences and lack of service

This is what I came on to say. Public sector here with a huge sickness issue (I’m not management)but we have issues with staff shortage (a lot caused by long term sick leave ironically) which means the rest of the staff have to carry the load, can’t get annual leave, have shifts altered at really short notice and generally treated like 💩.

Immediate line management are like OP and trying hard to do something about it, but are let down by shitty senior management support and rubbish HR.

People go off sick more easily now, in the past where people might have felt a bit ropy, but would have gone to work because there were sufficient staff who could carry you a bit but you could still make some contribution , now they stay off sick because if you’re in work you get so hammered by the workload that there’s absolutely no bandwidth to carry anyone who’s not 100%, and so it goes on.

In my workplace there’s a very obvious line between people who have come into the organisation in the last 3-5 years and staff who have been there for years…the newer employees are generally the piss takers

I honestly think unless you have experienced this in the NHS specifically you will not understand. Of course life sadly throws curveballs that mean some people have to take long term sick leave. There will also be people genuinely needing long term sick leave in the NHS.

BUT there is also a not insignificant number of people taking advantage of generous NHS sick policies and how poorly the NHS deals with staff who abuse these. It’s pretty obvious when you see it in person.

No more affected I would imagine than admissions of flu cases.....seasonal thing