Are my old employers allowed to give this flaky reference?

[recipw]

It seems a bit unfair.

My potential new employer has requested a reference from my old workplace.I left there in June.

They have come back with 'x was employed here from this date to this date, however, can't comment on performance much as off on maternity related sick and maternity leave for a long duration'

Is there anything I can do about this?

Thank you

Apologies I missed your update

I have chased up the potential new employer and they have withdrawn their offer due to the reference

Given this fact I would spend an hour with a solicitor to determine your next steps if you think you may want to take things forward, but my advice still stands, to be mindful of the toll it will undoubtedly take on you especially given your sad circumstances (so sorry).

Sorry for your loss OP - you're in a tough situation, I hope you can get it resolved.

The issue regarding the number of years of experience is an interesting one. We attempted to post a job advert with The University of Exeter - the job advert contained a requirement for X years of experience. They rejected our ad as it was non-compliant with their guidelines - they argued that the number of years of experience was irrelevant and amounted to age discrimination. They suggested that someone should be judged on ability and skills and that number of years of experience didn't prove someone could do anything as people pick skills up at different rates.

You can ask for anything up to five years, over that can amount to age discrimination. Of course, they may have a stricter policy, but legally they are partly correct.

They were concerned about discrimination against younger people rather than older.

to me, it reads as if your previous employer has"weaponised" your absence, due to pregnancy, against you.

How on earth do you see it that way? It’s the other way round. The employer has helped the OP by explaining that her absence was for pregnancy reasons -and therefore that she cannot and must not be discriminated against because of this.

does discrimination cover "we thought you had done x for a year but actually you have only done it for 3 months" type? which would apply equally to pregancy or adoption leave or cancer or a broken hip or sabatical to go whale watching.

its not wanting people who don't have enough experience overall, whatever the reason.

Helped? The fact is they shouldn't have mentioned the OPs absence! It reads as if the former employer was being critical of the OP because they'd taken time off. Believe me, employers aren't always benign when it comes to pregnancy related absence - because y'know a man wouldn't take all that time off to go off and have babies, we'd have got maximum value from them.

as it transpires the new employer has withdrawn their offer, what a surprise.

I think that the absolute certainty with which people are responding here is very misleading. We have no real idea what is going on here. We have one line of a reference, entirely out of context. So perhaps the potential employer said: "Please comment on X's performance in the role of YYYY (see attached JD)" and the JD says "requires 2 years post-qulaifying experience of ZZZ". And the former employers response is actually "'X was employed here from August 2021 to June 2022, however, can't comment on performance much as off on maternity related sick and maternity leave for a long duration'

How do you now feel about their two years experience or the former employers ability to comment on such performance? How about if they had simply not mentioned the maternity at all and said "absent from the workplace" (which they could have done). If someone cannot respond to a question asked then they truthfully have to say that they can't - or not give any answer at all which will still end the offer. Truth cuts both ways - yes an employer must tell the truth in a reference, but sometimes that truth is what you don't want someone to know. If, as in my example, someone has less than a years employment and was off for most of that time, no matter what the good reason, in the employers shoes, are you happy to be misled about their previous employment or experience?

Based on one line out of context and with no other information it is impossible to say anything with certainty.

As a pp observed, employers aren't always benign. They aren't always evil incarnate either. Being hugely sympathetic about an appalling tragedy for the OP can co-exist with thinking that it may not be nearly as clear cut as people are assuming.

That's very true. All we know is that the role is within the NHS. The length of experience may well be crucial I guess.

It's so difficult. Must be very hard for OP on top of everything else she's had to deal with.

I agree entirely. But I think that understanding more about what happened here is her best way forward, whether she wants to share it here or not. I can certainly understand her not wanting to go through the trauma of what happened again with strangers, but there are just so many variables that could be at play. I would certainly ask the potential employer why the offer was withdrawn - unless of course she already knows the reason and was, perhaps, being slightly economical with what she told them in her application. And I would ask the former employer why they wrote that - again unless the reason is clear. It could, as some have suggested, have actually been an attempt to put a positive spin on a prolonged period of absence (because yes, an employer is allowed to disclose maternity related absences - perhaps the law shouldn't be like that but it is, but it is only excluded for sickness absence processes) - potential employers are far more likley to be understanding of maternity related or cancer related (or any of the things people are sympathetic about) than 90 days of various colds! Again, maybe the shouldn't, but that is the world of work - certain things gain more empathy than others, even if it sin't fair that they do.

The other possibility, of course, is a misunderstanding. The OP clearly didn't realise (or I assume they didn't) that any absence has to be declared, piad or unpaid, and maternity isn't excluded. Although not NHS myself I am public sector and also see NHS reference requests - and it is common on a reference to ask for the total number of days absences. We also ask candidates to whom an offer has been made how much absence they have had. If the OP said none and the reference said XX days, that doesn't look good as i can seem like the applicant may be lying.

Personally, I would have spoken to the OP before making a decision, not simply withdrawn the offer. Even if it were a reason that meant it couldn't possibly be confirmed, I would still speak to them. It's only courtesy to do so.

The amount of absence is a question that is frequently asked on references though. So the employer helped by putting the absence into context.

I thought pregnancy related absence was suppose to be disregarded?

For sickness absence purposes, yes, for your employer -they can’t use it to count towards sacking you. But you are still absent. If a reference request asks for the amount of days absent, the employer can’t lie and say 6 days when it was in fact six months. They write six months.

I’ve given references for a company I worked for and was told in no uncertain terms to ONLY state “so and so worked this date to this date, worked as (job title)” and not to comment anything else as did not want to risk a lawsuit. Honestly it was quite an unprofessional reference from them and maybe contact citizens advice.

Only in the sense that it doesn't count against your sickness record.

But it's still time off work. So if your CV says you've been doing your role for a year but you've actually been absent due to pregnancy sickness and maternity leave for ten months of that year, it could still be a legitimate issue for future employers.

Yes, obviously.

What on earth made you think I was thinking it was anything other than that?

That might be your employers policy. IT is far from the legal position, and, in fact, not only do many employers ask for more, but in some cases the law requires them to! Whether this particular reference is unprofessional or not is far from clear. It would be very helpful if the OP could perhaps provide the further information asked a number of times now - how long they worked for the former employer and how much time they had off. That would provide a much better comtext than people guessing at what is going on.

There is a huge difference between providing a detailed reference and an inaccurate or misleading one, and if an employer is employing people who don't know the difference (and thereby risking a "lawsuit") then they perhaps need to consdier whothey are employing with responsibilities that they don't seem to have confidence they can handle. As it is, my employer wouldn't accept a basic reference and would ask for another.

Employers have different policies about references.

I'm so sorry for your loss.
Your issue is your CV, not the reference. Your CV currently gives a false impression of your experience. Whilst this may help you get job offers, it isn't accurate.
I know you don't want to mention it, but I was told you always had to account for any gaps in your employment history. If it was me, I would put worked for Blogs Ltd June 2020 to June 2022, including 12 months maternity related absence. That way they know you have less experience and they won't have any problem when your reference arrives.

All my references are like that.

I've even had companies who have given me references confirm with me they are allowed to give references to others. So now I tell them in advance x will ask you for a reference please give them one.

It's because they all want to avoid post employment discrimination tribunal claims.

I think it would be worth you reading all the OP's posts so you understand why this won't work in this situation.

I have friends who have suffered similar losses and it's taken years for them to be able to talk about it.

Unfortunately I've found in this country from my own personal experience many people are nasty about deaths and terminal illnesses of teens and adults let alone younger children.

It is standard for NHS referrals to ask for absence during employment. Nothing illegal about it.

It sounds like OP was being deceitful about her years of experience referencing to length of employment as opposed to actual length of experience, so the withdrawal of the offer, if the above is correct is perfectly acceptable.

As already stated, how can it be discrimination if the sane would apply to a man who had taken long leave to go travelling for 1 year?

It backfired sadly so it doesn't sound like either organisation did anything wrong.

Maternity leave isn’t a gap in your employment history, many women remain continuously employed.

Bo reason to start openly inviting discrimination on your cv either.

There is plenty of leave that would lower the time of experience you had, I’ll eat my hat if men are being advised to put their paternity leave or shared parental leave on their CVs, and if employers are putting it on their references. Same as bereavement leave, a career break, being part time, having been furloughed etc

Honestly if your potential new employer has hired you because of the specific experience of that job only to find that you were off for 10 of the 12 months you worked there, of course that's a legitimate reason to withdraw the offer. They clearly wanted someone with that specific experience and that's ok and definitely not illegal.

I am sorry for the loss of your baby @recipw.
In the circumstances that was a very blunt, cold, clinical reference. It was the very opposite of positive.
It read to me that you hardly did your job as you were on maternity leave / sick leave and were not someone who was available to work.
Basically you were flaky/ unreliable.
Quite heartless in your particular circumstances.

Glazing over gaps might be fine in a straight forward role where there is no career development, but in the nhs in roles where experience matters, you have to give a proper indication of your role. If I spent 1 year removing gallbladders and 1 year on mat leave / pat leave / research, I really can't say I've spent 2 years removing gallbladders.
I really feel for OP, but she asked for advice going forward for further job applications. She has been through so much pain already, and if this is going to be a recurrent issue, then she would be better being upfront about it, or go for roles that don't rely on the experience that she would have gained in her last role.