Active discussions

Meet the Other Phone. Flexible and made to last.

Meet the Other Phone.
Flexible and made to last.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Talk
Work

Chat with other users about all things related to working life on our Work forum.

Original poster

Help / Advice - Possible Gross Misconduct?

70 replies

Over40Chasm · 11/09/2022 20:40

Help / advice please no judgement….

I’m a married male. Went on a work trip a while back, got pretty boozy and danced with a more junior colleague.

Closer than we should have. We stopped and then I made some stupid comment about our behaviour not being appropriate and an ethical / moral test.

Didn’t do anything else, other than chat and then realised how late it was so headed back to my room (alone). Fast forward 6 weeks (was on hols for 3 of them) and I’m called into see HR.

HR basically asking questions like, “a witness described you and XXX as dancing closely together, did she do anything inappropriate, was it consensual” and then got asked if I’ve ever put any employees through a “moral test”… I’m freaking out… Implied I’d been pinching her bum… Never said anything sexual to her, never did anything other than dance and talk. I went back to HR a few days later with some points of clarification and was then asked “did you try and kiss her?”. I’m horrified. Help… this feels like a he said / she said and it’s not going to end well.

I’ve told my wife everything and yes I know there’ll be those who’ll look at that with raised eyebrows. I’ve apologised to her, it was completely out of character for me and I’m normally quite in control. I wish I’d just gone to bed early, and yes I’ll own up to dancing etc. but I’m so worried I’m about to be done for harassment and then it’s game over…. Anyone in HR around to advise… Feels like my goose is cooked. I’ll admit I made some mistakes but I didn’t kiss or make any sexual comments. Yes I’d had some alcohol but I know I didn’t do it…. HELP!

OP posts:
DahliaBlue · 11/09/2022 20:50

Be firm and stick to the truth. You were dating closely consensually. Then you realised it was not appropriate (you're married) so you stopped. You did not pinch her bum and did not try to kiss. If that's the truth , stick to it firmly.

Hakunamatata91 · 11/09/2022 20:56

It sounds like it was inappropriate, and depending on your workplace policies, could merit a warning. But if nothing non-consensual went on I would struggle to see how that would be gross misconduct. I guess the only other angle is are you certain that it was a mutual feeling? Some men don't seem very good at working out when advances aren't wanted, and if you were making unwelcome advances on a more junior colleague then that becomes a bit more serious.

Original poster
Over40Chasm · 11/09/2022 20:58

DahliaBlue · 11/09/2022 20:50

Be firm and stick to the truth. You were dating closely consensually. Then you realised it was not appropriate (you're married) so you stopped. You did not pinch her bum and did not try to kiss. If that's the truth , stick to it firmly.

Thanks. That’s what I have done… 100%… I didn’t touch her, didn’t try and kiss her but I’m petrified about the current environment being made into a scapegoat.

OP posts:
Original poster
Over40Chasm · 11/09/2022 21:00

Hakunamatata91 · 11/09/2022 20:56

It sounds like it was inappropriate, and depending on your workplace policies, could merit a warning. But if nothing non-consensual went on I would struggle to see how that would be gross misconduct. I guess the only other angle is are you certain that it was a mutual feeling? Some men don't seem very good at working out when advances aren't wanted, and if you were making unwelcome advances on a more junior colleague then that becomes a bit more serious.

It was inappropriate, and I think we both realised it which is why we stopped. You can never be certain if it is / isn’t a mutual feeling, but the tiny ray of sunshine I have is that it might have been witnessed by someone else. In which case it should be easy to show it was consensual.

OP posts:
Flopisfatteningbingforchristmas · 11/09/2022 21:04

You behaved inappropriately with someone you were/are in a position of power over. You need to speak to an employer solicitor.

Hakunamatata91 · 11/09/2022 21:08

Over40Chasm · 11/09/2022 21:00

It was inappropriate, and I think we both realised it which is why we stopped. You can never be certain if it is / isn’t a mutual feeling, but the tiny ray of sunshine I have is that it might have been witnessed by someone else. In which case it should be easy to show it was consensual.

Show quote history

If there are witnesses who were there who could say that she appeared keen on it/was actively participating then that definitely helps you. If its just your word against hers it puts the company in a trickier position, but if you've had no previous similar issues it would be shaky ground for them to find that to be gross misconduct.

Original poster
Over40Chasm · 11/09/2022 21:12

Hakunamatata91 · 11/09/2022 21:08

If there are witnesses who were there who could say that she appeared keen on it/was actively participating then that definitely helps you. If its just your word against hers it puts the company in a trickier position, but if you've had no previous similar issues it would be shaky ground for them to find that to be gross misconduct.

Show quote history

No previous similar issues. I’m guessing they’d check my employment record? I’ve been with them 7-8 years and no complaints / investigations / anything before… Honestly though I’ve really been through the wringer… and equally I know my behaviour was below par. Was worse explaining it to my wife, that really did require an epic apology.

OP posts:
Original poster
Over40Chasm · 11/09/2022 21:13

Flopisfatteningbingforchristmas · 11/09/2022 21:04

You behaved inappropriately with someone you were/are in a position of power over. You need to speak to an employer solicitor.

I think I’ll do that too. She doesn’t work for me, but I completely understand why there’s a concern…..

OP posts:
Hakunamatata91 · 11/09/2022 21:22

Over40Chasm · 11/09/2022 21:12

No previous similar issues. I’m guessing they’d check my employment record? I’ve been with them 7-8 years and no complaints / investigations / anything before… Honestly though I’ve really been through the wringer… and equally I know my behaviour was below par. Was worse explaining it to my wife, that really did require an epic apology.

Show quote history

If you've been there that length of time with no similar issues then that helps, gives you a bit more of the benefit of the doubt if it does come to your word against hers. Honestly nobody on here can tell you what's going to happen as it will depend on your company's attitude, but taking what you've said at face value i think you would be unlucky for it to get to gross misconduct. Personally I would wait and see what happens before getting a solicitor- there's obviously a cost associated with that. If they do start disciplinary proceedings then maybe have a chat with one then, but even at that stage they are highly unlikely to allow a solicitor to be actively involved in the disciplinary proceedings so there's a limit to what the solicitor could do. If it is starting to look like you will get dismissed, that's the point at which a solicitor may be able to really usefully help.

Original poster
Over40Chasm · 11/09/2022 21:30

Hakunamatata91 · 11/09/2022 21:22

If you've been there that length of time with no similar issues then that helps, gives you a bit more of the benefit of the doubt if it does come to your word against hers. Honestly nobody on here can tell you what's going to happen as it will depend on your company's attitude, but taking what you've said at face value i think you would be unlucky for it to get to gross misconduct. Personally I would wait and see what happens before getting a solicitor- there's obviously a cost associated with that. If they do start disciplinary proceedings then maybe have a chat with one then, but even at that stage they are highly unlikely to allow a solicitor to be actively involved in the disciplinary proceedings so there's a limit to what the solicitor could do. If it is starting to look like you will get dismissed, that's the point at which a solicitor may be able to really usefully help.

Show quote history

Thanks - I resigned just after (not connected) as I had a shiny new job lined up. Have told the investigator that that is what it is…

OP posts:
Quveas · 12/09/2022 08:43

I am confused. If you have resigned, why are you "petrified" about anything? And this all happened, and you got a nice shiny new job inside of an hour? On a Sunday evening?

Original poster
Over40Chasm · 12/09/2022 09:52

Quveas · 12/09/2022 08:43

I am confused. If you have resigned, why are you "petrified" about anything? And this all happened, and you got a nice shiny new job inside of an hour? On a Sunday evening?

Because you can still be disciplined when working your notice. I’ve got 7 weeks left. Was interviewing for shiny new job since May (yes it was a very long process). I’ve done way too much reading these past few days but effectively if it is counted as gross misconduct then it goes on my employer reference and my new job clearly won’t want someone with that on the record. Equally would you employee someone with a “sexual misconduct” on their references? I’m pretty senior where I work so it would be career ending.

OP posts:
Quveas · 12/09/2022 12:01

It would have helped if we had that information previously. If, and it really is only an if, they were likely to disclose, then on technical grounds they can disclose it in a reference now and say that you are under investigation. They shouldn't disclose why, but that isn't really a help. A reference must tell the truth, and should not mislead, but that really isn't a very high bar to jump. Some employers wouldn't disclose, some would and it's impossible for anyone to tell you with any certainty what they would do. My own employer, for example, uses detailed references and asks if someone is being investigated. Others only ask for dates and reason for leaving.

I'm also going to have to point out that that the bar for employment is not the same as that for courts of law. They only require a reasonable belief that you did something, not proof beyond doubt. So a lot could depend on who has complained and what they have said. Based on the few details you have provided it seems like they have spoken to at least two people - because the reference to the "moral test" suggests she has told them that if you said that to her, but it also sounds like at least one other person has provided information. Being actually guilty of something is not in fact required in employment law. I wish I could tell you otherwise, but you seem to want the truth, so it's better you are warned.

I honestly don't know what to advise you. You could sit it out and hope that it all works out. Or you could ask your employer if they will drop the investigation since you are now leaving anyway - although that does not guarantee that assumptions won't be made about your guilt or that the new employer doesn't find out. It's far too late to tell you that soft drinks at work do's a good idea - I suspect you have already made that resolution. Alcohol and work don't really mix, even socially.

I think, on reflection, that I might start by asking what the next steps and timetable are, and say that you are concerned about this impacting on your new job despite the fact that you are innocent of anything worse that poor judgement, and see what they say. That might open the door to an informal conversation that might give everyone a way out, including you. There is certainly nothing to lose. I suppose it is too much to hope you are in a union?

HappyHamsters · 12/09/2022 12:12

Why did HR ask if she was doing anything inappropriate. I am confused about the moral test remark, how would HR know you may have said that.

Original poster
Over40Chasm · 12/09/2022 13:47

Quveas · 12/09/2022 12:01

It would have helped if we had that information previously. If, and it really is only an if, they were likely to disclose, then on technical grounds they can disclose it in a reference now and say that you are under investigation. They shouldn't disclose why, but that isn't really a help. A reference must tell the truth, and should not mislead, but that really isn't a very high bar to jump. Some employers wouldn't disclose, some would and it's impossible for anyone to tell you with any certainty what they would do. My own employer, for example, uses detailed references and asks if someone is being investigated. Others only ask for dates and reason for leaving.

I'm also going to have to point out that that the bar for employment is not the same as that for courts of law. They only require a reasonable belief that you did something, not proof beyond doubt. So a lot could depend on who has complained and what they have said. Based on the few details you have provided it seems like they have spoken to at least two people - because the reference to the "moral test" suggests she has told them that if you said that to her, but it also sounds like at least one other person has provided information. Being actually guilty of something is not in fact required in employment law. I wish I could tell you otherwise, but you seem to want the truth, so it's better you are warned.

I honestly don't know what to advise you. You could sit it out and hope that it all works out. Or you could ask your employer if they will drop the investigation since you are now leaving anyway - although that does not guarantee that assumptions won't be made about your guilt or that the new employer doesn't find out. It's far too late to tell you that soft drinks at work do's a good idea - I suspect you have already made that resolution. Alcohol and work don't really mix, even socially.

I think, on reflection, that I might start by asking what the next steps and timetable are, and say that you are concerned about this impacting on your new job despite the fact that you are innocent of anything worse that poor judgement, and see what they say. That might open the door to an informal conversation that might give everyone a way out, including you. There is certainly nothing to lose. I suppose it is too much to hope you are in a union?

Firstly - yes I’m never drinking at a work event again. Have cancelled a couple of attendances at events, but there are a few I can’t get out of so tee-total there. My new job starts October 31st. I suspect I will hear this week if it’s going to disciplinary. Appreciate you telling me the truth, and I get it doesn’t matter in their eyes if I’m guilty or not as the fact I’m even under investigation would be reason enough. I still want to clear my name, my employer is aware I’m leaving and whilst I can’t prove what was said / not said I want to leave with a dented reputation, not a completely broken one. I’m reaching out to an employment solicitor to get their view. And no I’m not in a union but thinking I may rapidly need to join one.

OP posts:
Original poster
Over40Chasm · 12/09/2022 13:49

HappyHamsters · 12/09/2022 12:12

Why did HR ask if she was doing anything inappropriate. I am confused about the moral test remark, how would HR know you may have said that.

I think we were both seeing dancing inappropriately together, and it was witnessed (thank god). The moral test remark can only have come from her…

OP posts:
HappyHamsters · 12/09/2022 15:03

Are you both being questioned and being investigated then

Original poster
Over40Chasm · 12/09/2022 15:31

HappyHamsters · 12/09/2022 15:03

Are you both being questioned and being investigated then

I don't know - I suspect she has raised a grievance.... hence why I think I'm gone...

OP posts:
RaspberrySweeties · 12/09/2022 16:00

So, you were dancing with her, arms round each other I assume? Or grinding up against each other?

You made a comment about this should stop because it wasn't appropriate and it was almost like a moral test?

Just so I'm clear

Original poster
Over40Chasm · 12/09/2022 16:19

RaspberrySweeties · 12/09/2022 16:00

So, you were dancing with her, arms round each other I assume? Or grinding up against each other?

You made a comment about this should stop because it wasn't appropriate and it was almost like a moral test?

Just so I'm clear

No - arms not around her, I was dancing behind her and we started grinding. I know I know...

OP posts:
Original poster
Over40Chasm · 12/09/2022 16:20

RaspberrySweeties · 12/09/2022 16:00

So, you were dancing with her, arms round each other I assume? Or grinding up against each other?

You made a comment about this should stop because it wasn't appropriate and it was almost like a moral test?

Just so I'm clear

And yes - we stopped and I said we should stop and it wasn't appropriate. She said something like "it's OK not like we were making out"...

OP posts:
Original poster
Over40Chasm · 12/09/2022 16:21

Over40Chasm · 12/09/2022 16:20

And yes - we stopped and I said we should stop and it wasn't appropriate. She said something like "it's OK not like we were making out"...

Show quote history

and I said still it's an ethical test

OP posts:
HappyHamsters · 12/09/2022 16:33

Who initiated the dancing and grinding, who is saying this is gross miscondict, have HR discussed with you with a disciplinary investigation and shown you the complaint or just asking you both what happened as another person thought it was inappropriate.

Original poster
Over40Chasm · 12/09/2022 16:40

HappyHamsters · 12/09/2022 16:33

Who initiated the dancing and grinding, who is saying this is gross miscondict, have HR discussed with you with a disciplinary investigation and shown you the complaint or just asking you both what happened as another person thought it was inappropriate.

Who initiated the dancing - she did. The grinding I'm not sure. No one has said gross misconduct, that's my fear. HR have yet to show me the disciplinary investigation and they also haven't shown me the complaint. I think this was just the initial investigation. And I think both of us thought it wasn't appropriate hence stopping.

OP posts:
LemonMuffins · 12/09/2022 16:44

I wouldn't assume it's her who has complained.

Is she significantly younger than you? A colleague might have been concerned about you taking advantage and reported it - especially if they know you're married and think you were acting the twat.