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Original poster

Work refusing to let me leave

345 replies

Summerreid · 04/07/2022 16:26

This has happened twice now where I have needed to leave during the day and work have refused, saying there is no one available to cover (secondary school teacher.) Just wondering if anybody knows what my legal position is.

OP posts:
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6
Blackbird2020 · 04/07/2022 22:32

errr…. FYI when employment law refers to ‘emergency’, it doesn’t mean flashing blue lights a&e trip…

the definition of emergency (for employment law) is a non-planned urgent situation that requires immediate action.

I actually think the person in charge of the OP’s school cover suffers from the same delusion, that there are ‘real’ emergencies (involving 999 calls?) and ‘non-real’ emergencies (involving projectile vomit?), and that he/she can somehow be the judge of them, and somehow ban the employee from leaving the workplace if they deem it to be a non-real emergency 🙄

Purplehonesty2 · 04/07/2022 22:34

Summerreid · 04/07/2022 19:24

Well, the unions just say similar to the links above re time off for dependents and thank you for that but that’s not quite what I was meaning.

If I rang tomorrow morning and said that I couldn’t come in as my child was unwell, I’m sure they wouldn’t be thrilled about it but there would be no question of me being made to go in. However, if I went in, taught the first period and then had a phone call from nursery to say my DD had been sick, I wouldn’t be able to get out.

In my particular case this has meant I’ve not been able to collect an unwell child from nursery but that isn’t the only example. My colleagues have also been similarly treated - one got a phone call to say her dad had died and they wouldn’t let her leave, and another fainted when teaching and got the ‘no cover available’ line. It would be helpful to know what the stance is as of course no one wants to risk a disciplinary.

That's horrendous. Really awful.

A parent dies and the school says you can't leave? A teacher being made to stay and teach when she has fainted??

I think it's down to the school you work in to be honest. My HT would cover my class if something like this happened. Or the TA would. No way would there be any question of cover, she would send me home and sort it out when I had left.

I think I would be looking for another job pronto.

Branleuse · 04/07/2022 22:37

Id change to supply teaching even just temporarily tbh if your school are going to be dicks about emergency provision. You would probably still get pretty much full time work but theyd pay more and you would have more flexibility.

Or maybe an aupair to be able to help whilst theyre preschool?

Shinyandnew1 · 04/07/2022 22:41

but theyd pay more

Supply teaching is now paid terribly and has implications for your pension.

ToadiesCouzin · 04/07/2022 22:46

I think you need to make lots of noises, to the SLT, that your position at the school is untenable because of this. Raise it at a Union meeting and see how the other teachers feel (lots must surely feel the same), and as a collective make a bit of a stink about it. I mean, you can't be expected to stay in all circumstances, anything could happen and you need to leave. There's zero way my school would refuse to allow a staff member to leave if their father had died, or they had vomited or fainted, or if they need to collect a sick child from nursery. I mean, you can't let a teacher stand in front of a class on their own if they've just fainted, what happens if they faint again, what would the students do? If they don't listen to reason, resign. I've worked in a number of schools and although far from perfect, non would have this policy.

AppleKatie · 04/07/2022 22:49

Op the cover manager is wrong- you are entitled to both sick and dependents leave and if it happens to come up in the middle of the school day that’s life. They cannot refuse to let you leave.

in practice to deal with this I would go to the union rep or if they really have no teeth go straight to the head. Ask the head what they would advise you to do in such a situation. Explain calmly that there needs to be a contingency which allows for legitimate staff absence.

if you don’t get anywhere raise a grievance with the governors.

it’s painful but you would win.

only other alternative I can see is to leave.

stratforduponavon · 04/07/2022 22:53

Another person who states there is no one in the whole wide world to help. No family, no friends just no one.

I agree with PP. Teaching probably isn’t for you.

noblegiraffe · 04/07/2022 22:56

I agree with PP. Teaching probably isn’t for you.

Sounds like you need directing to this thread.

www.mumsnet.com/talk/_chat/4573302-fears-grow-over-shortage-of-qualified-teachers

Maireas · 04/07/2022 22:58

Smokealarmwakeup · 04/07/2022 21:55

Does your school use SIMS? There is a way for you to check who is free, I can send you instructions tomorrow if that would help? I know it isn’t ideal to find your own cover in an emergency but it gets rid of their argument of nobody being available.

You can't do it like that. It's not fair on colleagues. The Cover Manager has to manage it

saraclara · 04/07/2022 22:58

stratforduponavon · 04/07/2022 22:53

Another person who states there is no one in the whole wide world to help. No family, no friends just no one.

I agree with PP. Teaching probably isn’t for you.

I had no-one other than my DH either. My children's grandparents (both sets) were 2.5 hours away, and even if they'd left their homes the instant they got the call, would be no use at all to a school or nursery (or the poor kid).

Yes I had friends, but they all worked. And childminders won't have sick children (they're just as likely as nurseries to phone and ask for a parent to pick them up).

Fortunately my DH and I both had decent employers (and kids who were rarely ill) so we managed.
But this sneery stuff about people who genuinely have no-one else just shows how people simply can't believe that other people don't have lives like theirs.

saraclara · 04/07/2022 22:58

Oh, and we were both teachers.

Maireas · 04/07/2022 23:02

Mrsmch123 · 04/07/2022 22:12

I would phone the head of year and say you are leaving they need to come and mind the children or send someone to do it. Give them a time in say 10minutes. If they are not there knock on the class next door and say you are leaving and the someone will be there to look after the children soon. Surely this is covered as time of for dependents so you shouldn't be penalised

I know you are trying to be helpful, but you really can't do that in a big secondary school. You cannot just leave a class.

ldontWanna · 04/07/2022 23:07

stratforduponavon · 04/07/2022 22:53

Another person who states there is no one in the whole wide world to help. No family, no friends just no one.

I agree with PP. Teaching probably isn’t for you.

Yes, because we rally can pick and choose and set arbitrary rules as who can be a teacher or not. There's one on every corner don't you know? Confused

mathanxiety · 04/07/2022 23:13

Agree with AppleKatie.

Yes, you have responsibility to try your utmost to find someone to take your child in an emergency, but it's up to the school to manage the cover situation, and while it's a shame the situation at present is so dire, that's not your problem, OP.

Your son shouldn't suffer - and his school receptionist shouldn't be the one left looking after a sick child - because your employer hasn't managed to set up a roster of suitable subs.

Schools in my local area have teachers conduct classes via zoom if they are suddenly called away, with a TA or even a lunch lady sitting in the classroom. The kids watch the screen from their desks and do whatever exercises they are asked to do.

Shinyandnew1 · 04/07/2022 23:14

Teaching probably isn’t for you

Well, perhaps if teaching wasn’t so inflexible as a role, there wouldn’t be the huge recruitment and retention crisis there is currently…

Motheranddaughtertotwo · 04/07/2022 23:19

This is awful. I’m a primary teacher and while we get made to feel incredibly guilty about any time we need out of class, I’ve never heard of someone being refused to leave. If there is no cover available then SLT teach, it’s really not up to us as teachers. I’ve had to leave a couple of times because of my children and I’ve never asked, I’ve told my manager that I need to leave immediately because of x, y, z. People really do forget that teachers are people with lives. I remember being asked why no one could look after my son, while he had Covid.

Puffalicious · 04/07/2022 23:23

EnidSpyton · 04/07/2022 22:09

Who are you speaking to when you're asking to leave? The person organising cover? Or your HOD/the Head? If it's just the person organising cover then I'd suggest you're not speaking to the right person.

Whenever I've needed to leave school (also secondary), I've gone to my HoD or Head, explained, and left immediately. It's then up to them to sort the cover.

I've never worked in a school that has refused teachers the right to leave during the school day in an emergency. Someone who becomes unwell or who has an emergency during the working day is always entitled to leave. It's not a prison!

Have a word with your union rep and ask them to get clarification on the school's policies and procedures for emergency absences during the school day. This should sort the problem as they will have to admit that their current response is illegal and in some cases would be a huge safeguarding failure. You mentioned a member of staff fainting while in charge of a class. If said member of staff was prevented from leaving and knowingly left in charge of further classes that day despite the risk of them fainting again (and being unable to therefore supervise the children in front of them), the school is deliberately putting children at risk of harm. This is about more than staff absence, it's about making sure the staff you have in front of your students are fit to supervise them safely.

This, in essence.

I'm in Scotland, so it can be quite different, but exactly as quoted here: you need to go, you need to go! My DS3 has epilepsy and I've had the occasion I needed to just leave right then. DH or I have no parents (both dead) and siblings all work. The only reason I've not had to leave more is the fact I have a DSis and DBil who work shifts and can sometimes help out. It's truly shit if they're just being difficult. We all do cover to help each other. Awful.

MistressIggi · 04/07/2022 23:23

FuckingHateRats · 04/07/2022 20:36

I haven't read all the responses so apologies if this is now out of date.

I'm a secondary teacher (in Scotland, not England, if that's relevant) and I would be able to leave at any time if i got a call like that. Our SLT would insist actually, and would cover it themselves if we had no cover. They would do the same to allow us to attend the sports day of our children too. I genuinely cannot imagine a time where they'd refuse, and as such no-one takes the piss.

I don't teach on a Tues or Thurs afternoon and, as long as I'm not needed for cover, I'm fine to leave early / work from home. They recognise the work I do in my own time and grant lots of professional trust and autonomy.

I'm realising that maybe my workplace is quite unique!

Agree, it has never been a problem when I've had to leave (and with covid, that's been a lot!) I have more than made up for any hours missed with unpaid overtime.
@FuckingHateRats what you're referring to is part of your contract in Scotland, the ability to work at a time and place of your choosing, when not required on the premises.

NeedToLeaveNow · 04/07/2022 23:29

When i worked at a private nursery we knew some parents just couldnt collect there child , even if they was ill, we had to isolate the child as much as we could
For example , they had jobs such as
Surgeons, Police Sargents, Cancer specialists.. Some Ofcourse had another parent or a family member or a friend that could pick up but some didnt and as a nursery we just had to do the best to keep the poorly child separate

What kind of nursery are the children in?
You need to talk to the nursery and see if there are any solutions that would suit everyone…

shreddednips · 04/07/2022 23:32

JenniferAlisonPhilipaSue · 04/07/2022 21:02

When my DM was a childminder, she was the emergency contact if a child was sick at school. She'd collect them and keep them until parent could collect them. If child was sick at her home, she'd again keep them until parent arrived. If she or one of us suddenly took sick, she'd still wait until the parent arrived.

So why don't you use childcare?

YABU

My childminder is absolutely wonderful, but there's absolutely no way she would agree to look after my child if he was puking or had a temperature, for example. A cold that didn't make him feel so unwell that he couldn't go in would be fine, but she (quite rightly) doesn't want to risk having to shut because her and her family catch norovirus etc. I imagine most childminders would feel the same, and I don't blame them!

Badlifeday · 04/07/2022 23:37

What should the OP's colleague (whose father passed away) have done? Asked the hospital not to call her at work? Toughened you and not been upset? I am frankly astounded that this happened.

Somethingneedstochange · 04/07/2022 23:56

Exactly this the irony of the school saying staff can't collect they're unwell child. But parents in that school are expected to collect sick child from school. Wonder what would happen if child's parent worked at the school. There was one girl in our year who's dad was a teacher in school.

Bluebellsand · 05/07/2022 00:07

I haven't got an answer for you, but I would love to know what the answer is. Sil suffered inhuman treatment from her work to regarding taking time out for genuine reason to everyone but her employer.

PointlesslyTa · 05/07/2022 00:07

All info here: www.acas.org.uk/absence-from-work/time-off-to-help-someone-else