To the non-vaxxers who work for the NHS- do we have a leg to stand on?

[LMonkey]

So it's looking like vaccines will become mandatory for all NHS workers from April next year...where on earth can we go fro here?
I really dont want to get in to a vaccine debate. I have strong feelings as to why I don't want the vaccine. I'm a med sec and don't see any patients any way, or go anywhere near them. But regardless of this I strongly feel NOBODY should be forced to have any vaccine. Do we have a leg to stand on? I mean it's not lawful to force an employee to have a vaccine but if the government make it compulsory for nhs staff is there any way round it do you think? This really is causing me enormous amounts of stress. I really don't know what to do (please don't anyone say "get the vaccine"). I'd love to hear from others in the same boat or from a legal standpoint.

[quote Mantlemoose]@Conflictedboobs
All the effects of the vaccine happen in 36 hours. Basically, if you’re fine after 36 hours, you’re fine.
That is completely untrue. My DS development problems 7 days after Pfizer. So bad that they've been refused their booster until further investigation.[/quote]
It is categorically true. If your son developed effects 7 days later then the thing that caused your sons ill effects would have happened in the first 36 hours. So for example, a blood clot can start in the first 36 hours and not cause symptoms for a few days.

There are millions of vaxxed, highly trained, English speaking nurses from the Philippines, India, Sri Lanka and Bangladesh ready and willing to work for the NHS

UK needed to import lots of them regardless.

Does that mean that NHS staff should be in fear for their job security when considering vacc decisions. I think this conversation has happened in USA, where lots HCPs are moving to private providers to keep their physical autonomy.

To me, having my vaccine is such a small thing to do. It is part of a public health need, rather than an individual choice. As you work in a hospital, how many Covid patients are in your at the moment how many were unvaccinated.

@JassyRadlett

Sorry - just found a very good graph (by the OSR) comparing ONS and NIMS denominators in a Full Fact article on this issue (with a read on the off chance you actually want to understand why the data can’t be used in the way you want it to be.

The graph you’ve posted a link to is also based on estimates, and even if it was accurate it still shows, for example in the 40s age group which the OP may well be, that you’re just as likely to catch it, and therefore spread it if you’re vaccinated or unvaccinated.

I’m guessing you don’t believe the data on the Yellow Card reporting website aswell relating to side effects.

I can’t remember the names of the scientists who said they aren’t effective against transmission recently but they said any effect they may have reducing transmission drops off after 3 months.

All I’m saying is that new information and data is becoming available all the time and people have a right to be cautious if they want to be.

Please stop insinuating I’m anti-Vaxx as I’m very much not.

@TrevorFountain

I am very interested to see this forced vaccination tested in court as it has far reaching implications beyond covid.

I'm rather surprised it hasn't happened yet - or have I missed it? It would be good to see the issues openly discussed, rationally, in a judicial setting. After all, the Executive is not the Judiciary - there must be independence. It's worrying that the Executive has used covid to encroach into areas it normally wouldn't and arguably shouldn't.

I'm triple-vaxxed and ok with that; but that's not what the OP is asking about - she's asking about the legal position here.

It’s being tested currently in the European Court of Human Rights - UK judiciary is likely to follow the outcome of this judgement as is the rest of the world.

Essentially, a group of 40+ healthcare workers in Greece are challenging mandatory vaccination. So far, the ECHR has judged there not to be a significant enough risk of irreversible harm by having the vaccine to rule it unlawful to make it mandatory, or that there isn’t evidence of irreversible and lasting harm to an individual by terminating employment based on vaccination status.

Basically, so far the judgement appears to be leaning that there is no infringement on human rights by mandating a vaccine requirement for certain professions.

@TrevorFountain

I am very interested to see this forced vaccination tested in court as it has far reaching implications beyond covid.

I'm rather surprised it hasn't happened yet - or have I missed it? It would be good to see the issues openly discussed, rationally, in a judicial setting. After all, the Executive is not the Judiciary - there must be independence. It's worrying that the Executive has used covid to encroach into areas it normally wouldn't and arguably shouldn't.

I'm triple-vaxxed and ok with that; but that's not what the OP is asking about - she's asking about the legal position here.

It's only just come in for care workers, so I imagine someone somewhere is starting a fight on itt right now but it takes time and courts are backed up.

I'm not rtft and I know this will have been said by many, but if you're nhs and those are the conditions you'll need to find a non nhs job.

I work for a charity and there's a lot I have to suck up that doesn't necessarily fit with my lifestyle but if it got to a point where the cons were outweighing the pros I'd leave the role and find another job. Simple.

‘You are just as likely to catch it and therefore pass it on’

You’ve misunderstood. Just because you’re as likely to catch it (which you’re not if everyone is vaccinated) doesn’t mean you’re as likely to spread it. The vaccine reduces viral load. Lower viral load means less chance of transmission so even though you could catch covid yourself, you are far less likely to pass it on and less likely to have a viral load high enough to make you really poorly.

The vaccine protects YOU from serious illness, it protects OTHERS from you. Those 2 things coexist.

I've not* - sorry for typos. I just woke up after a very late night (which is a requirement of my job )

Coyoacan
How horrible all the posts here are. It is not choice when you have to lose your job. I despair of the English and how willingly people give up their freedoms and I say that as someone who is vaccinated

Same here. I can't stand the pro-vaccine zealots who cant bear an alternative opinion and are so very gleeful at others' worries.

OP Im not sure what the answer is but Im doubtful that vaccines will be made compulsory; or at the least, there will likely be a huge uprising against it followed by much wrangling.

Im vaccinated and just lost a (vaccinated) friend who has died following covid jab complications. His brother is also very ill for same reason.

Vaccine isn't the answer to all prayers.

@Conflictedboobs

‘You are just as likely to catch it and therefore pass it on’

You’ve misunderstood. Just because you’re as likely to catch it (which you’re not if everyone is vaccinated) doesn’t mean you’re as likely to spread it. The vaccine reduces viral load. Lower viral load means less chance of transmission so even though you could catch covid yourself, you are far less likely to pass it on and less likely to have a viral load high enough to make you really poorly.

The vaccine protects YOU from serious illness, it protects OTHERS from you. Those 2 things coexist.

This.

OP is taking on board misinformation about the vaccine. There is a small risk with any medicine but it has to be balanced against the risks posed by catching or spreading the virus.

Just have the vaccine and get some help for your anxiety.

@DeeCeeCherry

Coyoacan How horrible all the posts here are. It is not choice when you have to lose your job. I despair of the English and how willingly people give up their freedoms and I say that as someone who is vaccinated

Same here. I can't stand the pro-vaccine zealots who cant bear an alternative opinion and are so very gleeful at others' worries.

OP Im not sure what the answer is but Im doubtful that vaccines will be made compulsory; or at the least, there will likely be a huge uprising against it followed by much wrangling.

Im vaccinated and just lost a (vaccinated) friend who has died following covid jab complications. His brother is also very ill for same reason.

Vaccine isn't the answer to all prayers.

You’re saying you know one of the 9 people who died following covid vaccination implications? Where did this person live? England Scotland or Wales? And when you say ‘just’, how long ago do you mean? Also OP seems to know 2 people who have died so that’s potentially 3 of the 9 accounted for just on this thread. What are the odds?? Do you and OP know each other? And 2 in one family having dying from the jab? This hasn’t ever actually happened so if you know about that you should report it immediately - it’s clearly not been reported so far since it doesn’t exist in the data.

Lying about knowing people who have died from vaccines is becoming a real problem online. What are you trying to achieve? Stop. It.

@daytripper28

It is morally reprehensible that people are being threatened with the sack if they choose not to be vaccinated.

Hmmm - well what about the surgeon performing your life-saving surgery? Would you be happy if she/he passed on Hepatitis B to you? Cause that's a real corker of a problem if you get it.

And yes - it's compulsory already for HCPs to have the Hep B vaccine or 'get the sack'.

You can be as outraged as you like, and as stupid but it doesn't change facts.

The hep B vaccine, which people keep mentioning in this thread, has been around for decades, as have many of the other vaccines that are being mentioned. Unlike the other vaccines, the drugs companies for the covid vaccines, which as we know has not been around for a long time, do not accept liability for any adverse effects (as another poster also said). So I really dont understand why this point keeps being pushed regarding mandatory vaccines as its really not comparable.

Also just to address various other posters, when I started my med sec job 10 years ago, there were NO conditions that I had to have ANY vaccines. Yes I have had vaccines in my life time; the normal ones that we know about, that have been around for years. But none that have been developed quickly within a year following what is obviously a man made virus where the drug companies won't accept liability.

Aaaah ok - you’re misinformed. NO vaccine producer ‘accepts liability’ for vaccine side effects they don’t know about - that’s not a thing. Where have you heard that all vaccines have some weird liability clause? They don’t.

Op there are other jobs available

But even private non customer facing companies have vaccine statements.
Im on notice for one role which is a stockbroking service and about to leave to go to an insurance company

Stockbroker company have lightly encouraged all to get vaccine and if not then to do weekly lft and upload results to a centralised (hr visible only) portal

Insurance firm have said be vaccinated or pay for pcr weekly from your own pocket.

The nhs may make the call to be vaccinated or no job. You will need to find another role that suits your needs. But even private firms have rules around this.

And also there are many many vacancies out there in my kind of industry (customer service administrator or data input) so maybe start doing some research into whats available of your not getting vaccinated before the proposed deadline

@lemmein

Before I started my health course I had to go to the OT who asked about my BCG because I don't have a scar at all, I told her I'd had it, she took my word for it.

I did have the hepB vaccine from the OT though.

I hope on your course you go onto learn about the difference between occupational health and occupational therapy which are completely different jobs. (Unless you get an OT working in occupational health in which case they wouldn’t be giving injections)

Also the reference to ‘been around for decades’ - The covid jab is the most widely deployed, widely tested vaccination in human history. By comparison, the flu jab we have each year is different each time and developed in the months running up to flu season. It is very well tested and this years dose is ‘newer’ than the covid jab. Will you be refusing your flu jab on the grounds it’s ‘untested’?

I am massively in favour of you making your own decision in the knowledge that you will need a new job if you choose not to be vaccinated - but with such a lot at stake it is absolutely vital that you’re properly informed. From your posts, you have absolutely got to refer to better sources for your information.

@Sunseeker90

Op there are other jobs available

But even private non customer facing companies have vaccine statements.
Im on notice for one role which is a stockbroking service and about to leave to go to an insurance company

Stockbroker company have lightly encouraged all to get vaccine and if not then to do weekly lft and upload results to a centralised (hr visible only) portal

Insurance firm have said be vaccinated or pay for pcr weekly from your own pocket.

The nhs may make the call to be vaccinated or no job. You will need to find another role that suits your needs. But even private firms have rules around this.

And also there are many many vacancies out there in my kind of industry (customer service administrator or data input) so maybe start doing some research into whats available of your not getting vaccinated before the proposed deadline

This is also a good point. Our workplace doesn’t mandate vaccination but new hires are asked at interview about their commitment to the health and safety of everyone in the workplace, some of whom are ECV.

The OP has now stated that covid is “obviously a man made virus”.

Stand down, everyone; we’re all wasting our time with sense and stats.

The only people I’ve heard this from are the lost tribes of conspiracy theorists. We’re not going to change the OP’s mind, no matter what we say.

Thanks for the information about the case with the European Court of Human Rights, @Conflictedboobs.

I can see why other potential litigants are waiting for the outcome of that.

@Getyourarseofffthequattro

Although I suppose my next question would be, how do you know you're fine. I mean you know you're not dead or dying obviously, but for instance what if it did kick something off in those 36 hours, but it sort of didn't present itself. Using infertility as an example (I know this has been disproved but it's the only example I can think of where it may not be an issue until it's an issue iyswim) how do we know we haven't done damage now but find out layer when we have a reason to check?

Sort of like different cancers being found years after various events as a result of those events, but only discovered when it sort of showed it's face if that makes sense?

I'm genuinely not being goady or argumentative it genuinely interests me and it's the one reservation I have about vaccinating tinies.

Don't know if this explanation of how some of the vaccines work will help:

@Mojoj

It is morally reprehensible that people are being threatened with the sack if they choose not to be vaccinated.

Well I think it’s morally reprehensible to work somewhere and watch hundreds of people die around you and think “fuck it, nothing to do with me” when you could help prevent that. But each to their own

I don’t want to work with people who don’t give a shit about my safety or those of their colleagues or patients. They can go somewhere else.

The arguments used are illogical and I am completely bored of having to deal with the stupidity

But none that have been developed quickly within a year following what is obviously a man made virus where the drug companies won't accept liability

Oh dear. Off you pop op. Good luck in your job hunt.

There was much joy when the polio vaccine became available.

Parents were absolutely desperate to protect their children.

Why are we so selfish now?

But none that have been developed quickly within a year following what is obviously a man made virus where the drug companies won't accept liability.

Do lots of your fellow medical secretary colleagues feel like this, and believe this, out of interest?