To the non-vaxxers who work for the NHS- do we have a leg to stand on?

[LMonkey]

So it's looking like vaccines will become mandatory for all NHS workers from April next year...where on earth can we go fro here?
I really dont want to get in to a vaccine debate. I have strong feelings as to why I don't want the vaccine. I'm a med sec and don't see any patients any way, or go anywhere near them. But regardless of this I strongly feel NOBODY should be forced to have any vaccine. Do we have a leg to stand on? I mean it's not lawful to force an employee to have a vaccine but if the government make it compulsory for nhs staff is there any way round it do you think? This really is causing me enormous amounts of stress. I really don't know what to do (please don't anyone say "get the vaccine"). I'd love to hear from others in the same boat or from a legal standpoint.

It is morally reprehensible that people are being threatened with the sack if they choose not to be vaccinated.

@Conflictedboobs
All the effects of the vaccine happen in 36 hours. Basically, if you’re fine after 36 hours, you’re fine.
That is completely untrue. My DS development problems 7 days after Pfizer. So bad that they've been refused their booster until further investigation.

'There are unarguably reasons as to why we should question any vaccine, especially this one.'

Have you had the usual vaccines? Have your children? Did you dither over polio vax for example? Go off and tested research? Investigate side effects? Check multiple studies?

If you did. That's impressive. But I bet you didn't.

I really don't understand why in general there are a sizeable group of people who are so nervous/ suspicious of vaccines. I can only assume it's because it's prevention rather than treatment after ill. I find it v strange.

Reading more of thread.

I remember my mum telling me about needle stick incidents and the HCP having hep and hiv tests and waiting for results.

I remember the medicin sans frontiers docs.

And the HCPs who looked after patients with ebola and other godawful things.

Those who looked after hiv patients before known how it was transmitted.

HCPs who work in war zones.

And I mean. Obv that is not the same as OP at all. But I do think. This is so. It's just a bit pathetic really.

Vaccines are brilliant. Full stop. They have prevented untold suffering. As preventative there's no issue with antibiotic resistance and what not.

Individuals picking and choosing based on their own, likely dodgy, risk assessment for themselves.

It's got really iffy potential impact for vaccines in general.

However it's up to individuals. I think NHS saying must have unless contraindications is unreasonable tbh.

And different rules for different roles would be hugely messy.

@Mojoj

It is morally reprehensible that people are being threatened with the sack if they choose not to be vaccinated.

Agreed! However, I really don't believe for one second this will happen - the NHS is already massively understaffed, no way are they going to introduce something that reduces staff levels even more.

Literally everything this government says is bollocks, I don't understand why anybody listens to them - they'll send one of their stooges out on the day it is to be introduced to defend the decision, then U-turn by lunchtime.

If they DID do this I think all MPs should have to prove they've been vaccinated too - in fact, I think they should have to regardless. If they're so confident in the vaccine they'll have no issue doing that I'm sure.

I'm double-vaxed, but I strongly believe no government should be coercing people to have a medical procedure - and it IS coercion, fuck pretending it's a free choice

@Merriwicks

But other vaccines are mandatory in NHS. BSG for one! (although seems there is a shortage of this vaccine in recent years)

Are they mandatory though? There is no record of me having the BCG, however I know I have, I remember getting it at school.

Before I started my health course I had to go to the OT who asked about my BCG because I don't have a scar at all, I told her I'd had it, she took my word for it.

She also asked if I'd had all childhood immunisations - I again told her I had, then I found out just a few months ago from my DM that hadn't at all

I did have the hepB vaccine from the OT though.

If all the people you work close by with, all refuse to have the vaccines also, you might well be in line for some illness problems.

@Mojoj

It is morally reprehensible that people are being threatened with the sack if they choose not to be vaccinated.

Completely agree!

Mandatory vaccines have been around for 25 years to my knowledge. There’s no point being outraged by it now.

It’s for the patients protection.

It is morally reprehensible that people are being threatened with the sack if they choose not to be vaccinated.

Hmmm - well what about the surgeon performing your life-saving surgery? Would you be happy if she/he passed on Hepatitis B to you? Cause that's a real corker of a problem if you get it.

And yes - it's compulsory already for HCPs to have the Hep B vaccine or 'get the sack'.

You can be as outraged as you like, and as stupid but it doesn't change facts.

@lemmein - not a great occupational health nurse - they really should have checked properly. There is a surprsing amount of tuberculosis infection out there - and you don't want to get that either

@Coyoacan

Apparently us vaccinated are just as contagious as the unvaccinated, though hopefully not as liable to get really sick, so how does my being vaccinated help society?

Take a look at the impact of Delta in countries with low vaccination rates. We are incredibly lucky and vaccinations are making a huge difference.

@daytripper28

It is morally reprehensible that people are being threatened with the sack if they choose not to be vaccinated.

Hmmm - well what about the surgeon performing your life-saving surgery? Would you be happy if she/he passed on Hepatitis B to you? Cause that's a real corker of a problem if you get it.

And yes - it's compulsory already for HCPs to have the Hep B vaccine or 'get the sack'.

You can be as outraged as you like, and as stupid but it doesn't change facts.

"Hepatitis B vaccination is recommended for workers who are at risk of injury from blood-contaminated sharp instruments, or of being deliberately injured or bitten by patients."

Under the NICE guidelines it is recommended not mandatory that certain healthcare workers who may come in to contact with contaminated blood be vaccinated for their own protection.

Get your facts right rather than calling other people stupid or you might end up looking that way yourself.

Daytripper some actual facts on HCPs and vaccines

fullfact.org/health/mandatory-vaccine-care-home-hepatitis-b/

[quote Lilifer]Daytripper some actual facts on HCPs and vaccines

fullfact.org/health/mandatory-vaccine-care-home-hepatitis-b/[/quote]
Thanks for this. I've been looking for a succinct information sheet to evidence what I've been saying up thread - no vaccinations are mandatory in my trust and it's legal!

Why can't you see it from a societal perspective and do your bit the same as everyone else? If there's something special about you please tell us - else just stop fretting and get a different job .

Where does this stop? Will teachers, social workers, shop workers all be forced into having it as well? MP's?
I've had al my vaccines but no one should be forced to. The NHS is on its knees with staffing levels as it is. To me this is just another way of ensuring the NHS fails so our lovely government can 'save' us by making everything private. If they get rid of unvaccinated staff the NHS will be unable to function. Another point is, we wear PPE for all patient contact. Are they saying this is ineffective then?

Rather than being forced, isn't it just a consequence of your choice?

New requirements for existing jobs have always existing.

A few years ago I worked in prison education doing a specific role. Some people had done it for years. It become mandatory for us all to have a certain qualification. We had 2 years to get it or lose our job. It involved attending courses regularly, writing lengthy assignments in our own time, creating large annotated portfolios - several months worth of work. Almost all had to be done outside of work hours, eating into our evenings and weekends.

Was I forced to give up hours of my time? No.
I could say no, and use the remaining time to find a different job. A couple of people did - after a decade or more of doing the same role, they said no. The consequence of their choice meant they had to change jobs.

For the same role I was also required to have a hepatitis vaccine.

omg, that would be hilarious if MPs had a covid vaccine mandate. Bring it on Javid.

Hasn't Costa Rica just mandated that all kids age 5+ must have covid vaccine to attend school?

I suppose the social contract is that we give govt certain powers but 'trust' them not to use their powers disproportionately. Govts are supposed to regulate what companies do which means limiting their policies that hinder civil liberties and personal autonomy. Where my dad lives, children can only go to a (outdoor blazing sunshine) public playground for 30 minutes max and must wear a mask the whole time they are there. I find that policy insane & it makes me feel unsafe that local govt is using its powers to issue un-justified dictats like that.

Meanwhile, it's fine on MNHQ to call someone who is vaccine-hesitant a "fucking idiot." And not understandable that that kind of angry name-calling makes me feel like I am encountering an unsafe community.

Hep-B vacc is recommended to protect the HCP afaik, not the patients.

@Abraxan

Rather than being forced, isn't it just a consequence of your choice?

New requirements for existing jobs have always existing.

A few years ago I worked in prison education doing a specific role. Some people had done it for years. It become mandatory for us all to have a certain qualification. We had 2 years to get it or lose our job. It involved attending courses regularly, writing lengthy assignments in our own time, creating large annotated portfolios - several months worth of work. Almost all had to be done outside of work hours, eating into our evenings and weekends.

Was I forced to give up hours of my time? No.
I could say no, and use the remaining time to find a different job. A couple of people did - after a decade or more of doing the same role, they said no. The consequence of their choice meant they had to change jobs.

For the same role I was also required to have a hepatitis vaccine.

Did that academic course carry a risk of side effects up to and including death?

There is a massive difference in expecting someone to gain additional skills within their current role and forcing someone to inject a substance that carries a small but evidenced risk of death.

I am very interested to see this forced vaccination tested in court as it has far reaching implications beyond covid.

I work in financial services in admin. I'm not a fee earner but still had to have a background check as this is standard practice for this industry. Same goes for the vaccine and heath services now. Nobody is forcing anything, you are at liberty to find work in a different sector with different rules, just as I am.

In other countries your children can't attend school unless they've had the full programme of childhood vaccinations.

It doesn't surprise me that the COVID vaccination is becoming mandatory for certain professions.

Of course you're free not to have it but as always, your actions have consequences and in this case if you choose to stay unvaccinated it means you can't remain in your job.

Wasn't there a mandatory vaccination programme in the sixties too? I was talking to a friend about it this week and he was saying he had to have all sorts of jabs in order to go to school.

There are millions of vaxxed, highly trained, English speaking nurses from the Philippines, India, Sri Lanka and Bangladesh ready and willing to work for the NHS. Just saying. It may come to that given the U.K is now giving visas to lorry drivers and abattoir workers.

I am very interested to see this forced vaccination tested in court as it has far reaching implications beyond covid.

I'm rather surprised it hasn't happened yet - or have I missed it? It would be good to see the issues openly discussed, rationally, in a judicial setting. After all, the Executive is not the Judiciary - there must be independence. It's worrying that the Executive has used covid to encroach into areas it normally wouldn't and arguably shouldn't.

I'm triple-vaxxed and ok with that; but that's not what the OP is asking about - she's asking about the legal position here.