Soooo disappointed in job applications!

[SnowfallSnowball]

Hi
I am currently shortlisting for a role and the level of applications are so disappointing. I totally understand that nowadays applications are a task in themselves but if you’re not going to take the time to read the application guidance, JD and PS why bother applying at all?

I have already seen a high number of people who have just wrote a cover letter and attached their CV when we specify no CV’s and to write a supporting statement abiding by items on the PS. Many of these applicants are already in a job so they must have applied properly to posts in the past, I don’t get it!

Any other recruiters have these issues?

@JorisBohnson2

Can you understand that it's a massive hassle for people to fill out a form or send a supporting statement when the chances are they won't get an interview or (with many employers) not even hear back?

I've been put off applying for roles before when there's excessive hoop jumping in the pre interview stage. Unless it's a dream.job I'm probably going to save my energy for the less onerous roles where I can send a CV.

This may be why you're missing out on good candidates

Totally agree. You can judge a lot about a job and an organisation from its application process. Bureaucratic forms which ask me to reformat exactly what’s on my CV into something else, or write a long statement about myself which, let’s face it, no one really wants to read, tell me that the company doesn’t value my time and raises a red flag Re: what the rest of the process, and the role, would look like.

People who have time to complete these time consuming processes are more likely to be unemployed and less likely to be the high performers you are after.

I agree that asking for CVs only might mean you end up with too many- so invest in some CV screening software to do your first sift.

or write a long statement about myself which, let’s face it, no one really wants to read, tell me that the company doesn’t value my time and raises a red flag Re: what the rest of the process, and the role, would look like.

We read them and want to read them! I need to know a lot of information about an applicant as part of the shortlisting process. If you can't be arsed to complete a personal statement addressing the points on the person spec I'd have grave concerns about your commitment or ability to do the job.

@TheDevils well, sounds like we have a different approach. I prefer CVs when recruiting people because I value qualifications and experience more than a person’s ability to write waffle. When I’m applying, I tailor my CV to include examples of the spec rather than writing paragraphs about how action-oriented or dynamic I am.

[quote Puppysharness]@TheDevils well, sounds like we have a different approach. I prefer CVs when recruiting people because I value qualifications and experience more than a person’s ability to write waffle. When I’m applying, I tailor my CV to include examples of the spec rather than writing paragraphs about how action-oriented or dynamic I am.[/quote]
Very few candidates tailor their CV to include examples of the spec - I don't know why they bother. If they want the job but they can't be arsed making an effort - what else can't they be arsed doing right?

[quote Puppysharness]@TheDevils well, sounds like we have a different approach. I prefer CVs when recruiting people because I value qualifications and experience more than a person’s ability to write waffle. When I’m applying, I tailor my CV to include examples of the spec rather than writing paragraphs about how action-oriented or dynamic I am.[/quote]
As I've said all along, it really depends on the role and the sector.
As a qualified careers adviser I'm fully aware that recruitment practices differ between organisations, roles and sectors.

However, in the past when I've been responsible for recruiting either careers advisers or education liaison officers we would get literally 100's of applications and the vast majority of applicants have similar qualifications and experience so a CV isn't an effective way of sifting though applications. We typically interview 8 people and it would be impossible to shortlist to that number from a CV.

Plus, I needed to know they could write a good personal statement as that formed part of the job. And just CVs would have meant we missed out on some applicants who might not have had vast experience in the sector ( new graduates) but had a lot to offer the role.

I am currently recruiting a senior lecturer and again, a CV just doesn't give me enough information. I don't want to see waffle but I do want to see clear examples of how you meet the person spec

I suspect the difference in approach is down to seniority and to a lesser extent public v private sector.

No one in a senior role in a private company is going to fill in a lengthy application form.

@TheDevils when you post a position for a senior lecturer how many applications do you get?

And what % of those are from people with the necessary academic qualifications and years experience?

[quote PegasusReturns]@TheDevils when you post a position for a senior lecturer how many applications do you get?

And what % of those are from people with the necessary academic qualifications and years experience?[/quote]
It depends on the subject but full time permanent lectureships are rare and like hens teeth in my subject ( only offered at 6 universities) so I would expect it to be close to a hundred if not more- especially as we place a huge emphasis on the professional qualifications and experience which anyone working out in industry will have as it's a sector requirement.

Most applicants will have the qualifications required but it's the experience which will be more diverse hence the need for a personal statement. We don't necessarily need someone who has done the job already as we're looking for the ability to do the job. That's very difficult to get across in a CV.

BTW we don't ever specify a number of years experience as it's considered discriminatory.

Thanks @TheDevils

I think that might be the reason for the complete spectrum of responses on here. I cannot fathom receiving over 100 applications from people who don’t have the requisite qualifications and experience let alone those that do.

BTW we don't ever specify a number of years experience as it's considered discriminatory

I have to say I think that is insane!

BTW we don't ever specify a number of years experience as it's considered discriminatory.

Do you ask for dates on the application form?

@PegasusReturns

BTW we don't ever specify a number of years experience as it's considered discriminatory

I have to say I think that is insane!

Exeter University refused to host our Job Ad because we asked for a number of years experience and we were told it breached the equalities act - they also challenged us on requiring a degree as that was discriminatory towards people without degrees.

Exeter University refused to host our Job Ad because we asked for a number of years experience and we were told it breached the equalities act

😂😂

Exeter university clearly don’t understand the equalities act. Which surprises me not at all.

The whole point of recruitment is discriminating against the crap candidates in favour of the good ones, bearing in mind a few specific legal requirements.

All these people guilding the lily.

I have a degree and professional quals. I expect people without those to be ruled out of applying for the jobs I do.

@PegasusReturns

Exeter University refused to host our Job Ad because we asked for a number of years experience and we were told it breached the equalities act

😂😂

Exeter university clearly don’t understand the equalities act. Which surprises me not at all.

Was also quite surprised that a University was trying to insist that having a degree shouldn't be a requirement either - I can see their point for many roles but it's rather like a turkey voting for Christmas, they also suggested asking for a degree could be against the equalities act because it meant someone under 21 years old couldn't apply for the job.

I get that more experience doesn't always mean more ability but there's a correlation and we have to sift on something - we can't give them all a trial run at the job to see if they can do it.

Is that like me advertising for a science teacher but then not being allowed to require qualified teacher status? Crikey. It's not often that compulsory-age education is the sensible party in any workplace comparison 😂

'I'd like to apply for your consultant orthopaedic surgeon vacancy please. Oh no, I've not finished my training yet but y' know, I'm doing really well in my course exams'.

To add something in favour of application forms, they are used for blind recruitment to remove/reduce bias, particularly in HE and FE. When I'm reading applications, all identifying information about the candidates is hidden until I and the other shortlister have reviewed the application and made a decision about who to interview. It stops people being discriminated against for example, if their name is an indication of their ethnicity or based on their gender. Application forms do take ages and the most recent job I applied for required a statement for each of their essential criteria, which was hard work, but at least this way I know I'm addressing what they are looking for and can explain why I think I'm suitable if I only meet part of their criteria. CVs can be restrictive if you want to change industries even in the same career because your experience and qualifications aren't necessarily what they want. In my experience from changing sectors/specialism in my career, it was hard enough to achieve even having had the chance to explain myself before meeting them

@heyha I am moving to a new job in the education sector from private sector in a couple of weeks.

First public sector job for me.

Exciting!

@HLW22

To add something in favour of application forms, they are used for blind recruitment to remove/reduce bias, particularly in HE and FE. When I'm reading applications, all identifying information about the candidates is hidden until I and the other shortlister have reviewed the application and made a decision about who to interview. It stops people being discriminated against for example, if their name is an indication of their ethnicity or based on their gender. Application forms do take ages and the most recent job I applied for required a statement for each of their essential criteria, which was hard work, but at least this way I know I'm addressing what they are looking for and can explain why I think I'm suitable if I only meet part of their criteria. CVs can be restrictive if you want to change industries even in the same career because your experience and qualifications aren't necessarily what they want. In my experience from changing sectors/specialism in my career, it was hard enough to achieve even having had the chance to explain myself before meeting them

You don't need applications to do redacting - although it probably saves time and money. We redacted all personal information from CVs back when we advertised - Name address school and Uni attended. Hobbies and languages give a lot away though.

@RemoteControlledSheep

BTW we don't ever specify a number of years experience as it's considered discriminatory.

Do you ask for dates on the application form?

Yes but the shortlisting panel don't see that information.

I'm perfectly happy with not asking for a certain number of years experience - just because you've done a job for a number of years doesn't mean you're very good at it!

@PegasusReturns

BTW we don't ever specify a number of years experience as it's considered discriminatory

I have to say I think that is insane!

I completely disagree!!

Surely for a lecturer role the standard international format academic CV, research and teaching plans are enough? They already take hours to days to tailor to the role. Trying to fit that into an application form sounds like an advanced form of torture. The possible academic career paths are so varied that in my experience it invariably fails to fit your templates. They're impossible to anonymise because it's instantly obvious who someone is from the small pool of international candidates by their career path. Most of the people applying are going to be so broken and desperate they'll do it anyway even though it means not sleeping to fit it in around their other work and they'll apply even if they're not qualified out of desperation, so knowingly making them jump through those extra unnecessary hoops just feels cruel and won't keep application numbers down. At least lawyers are generally approximately law school-junior-mid-senior and don't get one shot at a job every 5 years.

@Heyha

Is that like me advertising for a science teacher but then not being allowed to require qualified teacher status? Crikey. It's not often that compulsory-age education is the sensible party in any workplace comparison 😂

'I'd like to apply for your consultant orthopaedic surgeon vacancy please. Oh no, I've not finished my training yet but y' know, I'm doing really well in my course exams'.

If you're comparing this to not being able to ask for a certain number of years experience then I don't think this is a good comparison.

It's perfectly fine to ask for specific qualifications because that is often an indication of certain level of knowledge or ability which is required to do the job. Asking for a certain number of years experience could mean you exclude a number of capable and potentially excellent applicants. Especially if you're just going off a CV.

On paper my colleague comes across as more experienced than me. He has 20+ years in academia compared to my 4 years. However, he's not very good at his job and I've packed in far more experience in my 4 years than he has in over two decades.
It is particularly discriminatory towards women who may have had career breaks for maternity leave.

I used to be a recruiter and now work in a highly specialised tech field.

If you aren't getting suitable applications then you don't hold the strong position. As a business you need to sell yourself and make your company an attractive proposition to potential hired You need to make it easy for people to apply. A CV plus short intro as to why they are interested would suffice.

I'm not looking for a role as I love my job. But I'm bloody good at it and highly respected in my industry. If I liked the look of a new role there's no way I'd be spending time putting together any application that was anything more than my CV and a quick intro.

Surely for a lecturer role the standard international format academic CV, research and teaching plans are enough?

Not always. Depends on the subject. My course is a professional course so I need people with significant industry experience and they need to be able to demonstrate how they will approach teaching and learning to ensure to students are academically and professionally competent.

I do know what I'm doing when it come to recruiting my staff believe it or not! It might not be an approach others would use but it works well for us!