Civil Service Culture

[LAlexander7]

Hi all,

There's potential I am going to be offered a role in the CS, I've always worked in the private sector.

Those of you that work there or have worked in private and public sectors, how did you find the transition? Any major headaches? Can you actually get sh*t done there?

I'll be going in at grade 7.

how did you find the transition?

A shock. Much, much slower paced. People working there that wouldn’t have lasted two minutes in the private sector. Felt as if nobody would ever be sacked for incompetence from the civil service.

Any major headaches?

Yes, most of the people I worked with thought that not offending anyone or rocking the boat was more important than getting sh*t done (see below). Also, there are loads of whingers there. Loads.

Can you actually get sht done there?*

Not without great difficulty. Everything you try to do is met with a chorus of, “nobody trained me in how to do this”, “this is above my pay grade” and “if it ain’t broke, don’t fix it”. The inertia was unbelievable. I was a senior civil servant. I am now, thank God, back in the private sector. Getting back to the private sector was a massive struggle because recruiters expect you to be crap. I was only saved by having a recognised profession and doing some very fast talking. So you should expect to spend the rest of your career in the public sector once you are in.

Sorry ot to be more encouraging. There are some really good people in the civil service. Just not that many.

@Iamthewombat

how did you find the transition?

A shock. Much, much slower paced. People working there that wouldn’t have lasted two minutes in the private sector. Felt as if nobody would ever be sacked for incompetence from the civil service.

Any major headaches?

Yes, most of the people I worked with thought that not offending anyone or rocking the boat was more important than getting sh*t done (see below). Also, there are loads of whingers there. Loads.

Can you actually get sht done there?*

Not without great difficulty. Everything you try to do is met with a chorus of, “nobody trained me in how to do this”, “this is above my pay grade” and “if it ain’t broke, don’t fix it”. The inertia was unbelievable. I was a senior civil servant. I am now, thank God, back in the private sector. Getting back to the private sector was a massive struggle because recruiters expect you to be crap. I was only saved by having a recognised profession and doing some very fast talking. So you should expect to spend the rest of your career in the public sector once you are in.

Sorry ot to be more encouraging. There are some really good people in the civil service. Just not that many.

Thanks for being candid, what areas of the CS did you have experience in? All of these things are playing on my mind, and I too was worried about trying to get back in as well, as I too had that perception when I am hiring.

Civil Service? The "we only take the best of the best" employer? So that's all bullshit then? Interesting.

I don’t recognise the description above. Yes, there can certainly be pockets like that, but I’ve mostly worked in fast paced environments where most people wanted to make a positive impact.

The "we only take the best of the best" employer?

Is that what they are saying? That is bobbins.

I’d prefer not to say which civil service bodies I worked in if you don’t mind, OP. It might be outing because I was in pretty senior roles.

Your primary concern, I think, should be ‘once I’m in, will I ever get back to the real world?’

Yes, there can certainly be pockets like that

I worked in two of the biggest departments. They are not ‘pockets’.

but I’ve mostly worked in fast paced environments

You probably think that it was fast paced. Trust me, it won’t have been

@Iamthewombat That is patronising bullshit of the highest order. I too have worked in the private sector, in incredibly high pressure jobs. Obviously neither of us can say what we did in the civil service so this is just assertion on both our parts, but I do wish there was a way of us both to evidence our claims.

SCS here. The CS is huge and nationwide. Your transition will be affected by the size of the dept and the location. Like private industry is not one size fits all.

I joined the CS 20 years ago from private practice (lawyer). I worked in a smaller dept and am now in a much larger one. The description above is unfair in my view.

The focus in the CS is very different to private industry as it has to be. You are there to give effect to and deliver on govt policy. I agree that some individuals don't perform to the expected standard. As a senior leader in my organisation I try very hard to ensure those people are properly managed in line with law and policy but I accept it is slow.

Those individuals aside, and it is individuals and not systemic, I have found hard working, passionate, loyal and able colleagues who I love working alongside. I am firmly committed to public service and have no intentions of leaving. I work far harder than I ever did in private practice.

I hope it works out for you OP.

Just spotted you'll be grade 7. Is it a specialist role?

You'll notice that a vast number of people are well below that grade and therefore you will be seen as pretty senior from the moment you land. That has positives and negatives.

@Iamtooknackeredtorun

Just spotted you'll be grade 7. Is it a specialist role?

You'll notice that a vast number of people are well below that grade and therefore you will be seen as pretty senior from the moment you land. That has positives and negatives.

Hi, yeah it will be a specialist role.

What are the negatives?

Much of these comments are bollocks. HOWEVER the one about not being able to get rid of under performing staff is true. It can take YEARS to get rid of someone - the reasoning being that they have to make sure there is no possibility they can be sued for unfair dismissal. It can happen though. I have worked for 2 CS depts (and the NHS which is seen as different but works in a similar way) and they vary immensely. With all the cuts and really crap wage rises I am now worse off than in 2010 in real terms and our direct team has been more than quartered so we are manically busy. But the bad name the CS got 30-40 years ago will never leave it.

'What are the negatives?'

Only the assumption that you will hit the ground running which is difficult when you're totally new to the public sector. As a lawyer joining a new discipline I was handed a complex case load on my first day (badly run by the outgoing lawyer) and expected to get on with it. As I say it was 20 years ago and now there's a much better understanding of induction and training!

I really dislike my department in the civil service. I’m hanging on for a few more months until maternity leave and not going back after.

Hi, yeah it will be a specialist role.

What are the negatives?

The principal negative is that you will be perceived as a threat by your peers if you’ve come in with specialist skills honed in the outside world. Passive aggression is a way of life in the civil service. Not everybody is like that, there are some genuinely good, energetic, clever people there, but there’s a critical mass of people who want things to be like they were in 1987 and will resist any attempts to modernise. Stuff happens in spite of those people, not enabled by them, and that’s why it’s a frustrating place to work. Not one of those people will ever leave, irrespective of how much they complain, because PENSION.

I’m assuming that you have been recruited under one of the semi-regular drives to bring in better people and change the culture. It’s a good aspiration, but you tend to find that anybody good gets fed up and leaves because they get tired of making slow progress and dealing with blockers.

Re some of the other comments on this thread: don’t be surprised when career civil servants become desperately upset by any criticism of the civil service. It rather wounds the ego.

We don’t know each other, but last year I advised a friend not to take a civil service role when she asked for advice. If your primary motivation is family-friendly policies and the pension and never being dislodged from your role, and you can cope with the nonsense, go for it, but realise that if you have career aspirations you can probably kiss goodbye to them. I consider myself very lucky to have got back to the private sector. One recruiter told me that I’m the only senior person he’s ever seen manage it.

@Rainallnight

I don’t recognise the description above. Yes, there can certainly be pockets like that, but I’ve mostly worked in fast paced environments where most people wanted to make a positive impact.

I agree, I do not recognise some of the generalisations.

The U.K. Civil Service is a massive pool of people, all the descriptions given could equally apply to the private sector, there are plenty of "jobs-worth's " there, I can tell you.

I can not describe how busy I have been since lock-down, and not just "busy work" actual tangible delivery of projects that will have a positive impact on real people. But the trouble is on MN anyone associated with government is scum and nothing that's actually delivered is of any value. But empty vessels make the loudest noises, I suppose.

You have a bright future ahead, if you are motivated, keen to contribute and tenacious. Yes there are people who have been life-long CS, but there is also a big pool of newer talent which pulls up the somewhat turgid bunch who want to twiddle their thumbs, to the higher standard.

Work is varied, you can get involved in a lot if you put yourself forward, and there is good training available, but it obviously needs a vfm business case as it's taxpayers money.

But the trouble is on MN anyone associated with government is scum and nothing that's actually delivered is of any value. But empty vessels make the loudest noises, I suppose.

Touched a nerve there, eh? Your arguments would be more persuasive if you didn’t resort to insulting anyone who holds a different view.

I wasn't intentionally insulting you personally, shame you are offended. I am not interested in being persuasive, our comments are what they are, our opinions

There is no doubt that public sector workers get a bad rap on here, but it doesn't hit a raw nerve exactly as I work with very talented people as CS, and I'm great at my job and very well qualified. I just don't want the OP to get a one sided impression that's overly negative, as that's only one side not the complete picture.

I moved from private to public sector and actually love it. I particular love that during the Covid crisis my job is safe.
I love my 9-5, mon-fri. I love not working bank holidays and not being expected to work overtime.

My role is fast paced, it’s massively about pleasing the customer above al else.

The problem is if you go to work for the civil service, you may struggle to move back to the private sector. Everywhere I’ve ever worked has perceived CS employees to be lazy, “that’s not in my pay grade” and coasters, rightly or wrongly.

I have just been promoted to a grade 7 after starting out an AO 15 years ago, I recognise and agree with all of the comments, good and bad.
Every department is different, will you be in a London HQ? If so, these offices are vastly different to a large DWP contact centre for example.

Thanks for all the comments, this hasn't helped me with my decision making haha.

I only applied for my current role because I needed a job, I have no actual interest in the department and over time I’ve actively began to dislike said department and what they stand for.

As Iamthewombat said, passive aggressiveness is a daily issue in my department.

JulieHere - wow, your comment is completely uncalled for. What a nasty piece of work.

Much like the private sector, the civil service spans a huge area of diverse working environments.
I joined a particular area a little over a year ago - and I'm making plans to leave. Prior to this I worked for a charity and it was the lack of security and poor conditions that prompted me to leave to CS. Unfortunately I have found similar to iamthewombat. It's the worst job I have had. The work I do is extremely boring: many of my "tasks" have not materialised because other staff are unhappy with changes and will not engage with my processes. There seems to be a toxic atmosphere where people are not even working to rule, but not even to job descriptions. No repercussions for any of this. I feel that all my skills are slipping away. I actually find it a little upsetting as aside from it being an awful atmosphere, I do want to serve the public.
However I know people who work in other areas and love it.