To bring an employment claim?

[CheeseonTwats]

Apologies it's a long one.

I was fired on the spot from my job last week. It's all still very raw. It was a good job I planned to stay in for a long time. I had been there just over a year and really enjoyed it.

The only difficult part of the job was working with a colleague who openly despised me from day one. Although she never made it clear why, I put it down to the fact that I was more qualified than her and younger but had more responsibility. She made regular attempts to undermine me and sabotage my work.

It all got very heated on a Friday. She'd made an error which I had to fix and when she asked why I'd interfered and I explained, she became irate. She screamed in my face and told me she would get me fired because she was sick to death of seeing my face. Unfortunately no one was around to hear this as it was after everyone had gone home.

I planned to go in early on Monday and report her to the boss as I was very shaken by the encounter. When I arrived the boss was in meetings for two hours. I then found out that she'd been out with my colleague for coffee for an hour before the meetings, which is unheard of.

After her meetings, I was called into the office via phone. The boss's secretary was there to take notes. The boss said she was really disappointed in me because she had heard that I'd told my colleague no one liked her and not to bother coming back to work (untrue). Colleague now felt like she couldn't work with me and threatened to leave. Boss said as colleague had been there longer (3 months longer) I should be the one to go.

I was in utter disbelief and asked for clarification if I was being fired. Boss said 'yes there's no other option but we'll pay you your notice period if you leave the building immediately because Colleague has her things packed ready to leave if you don't'.

I wasn't given the opportunity to give my side of the story as I was escorted out. I then received a Facebook message from colleague that said 'told you I'd get you fired '.

I called acas who told me to check my contract. It says 'all employees are subject to disciplinary procedures outlined in the staff guide.' I got hold of the guide and it confirms that all employees, regardless of length of service and including staff in their probationary period will be subject to the procedures outlined. It then has a very clear structure for both misconduct and gross misconduct that wasn't followed at any stage.

Acas have told me I have a claim for wrongful dismissal based on them not following their own guide and not offering me a representative.

I now have to write to them but I'm so exhausted by it all I'm questioning if it's worth putting myself through it.

What would you do?

It's not "scare-mongering," but pointing out a quite possible potential snag.

She sounds deranged OP! Poor you.

I just think in these situations it's important to keep a sense of perspective, it's beyond shit that this has happened but it's highly improbable this incident will affect ops future employment prospects. I don't think it's helpful to tell an already distressed op that they will have to explain this as if it's an absolute certainty when it's actually very very unlikely, unless for security clearance or if the previous employer is thick enough to put it on the reference

She was asking for advice as to whether to bother pursuing the case. Considering how her CV could look is therefore relevant. If I knew I had a good chance of getting the whole thing wiped and amended, then it might swing it for me if I had been dithering.

I would pursue and contact CAB for advice, if you don't have a union. Have an end goal worked out. I.e. a clean reference at bare minimum. You can sit in on hearings at your local tribunal service and the clarks can offer information on procedure if it gets that far. They may buckle before during negotiations with ACAS.

My advice to you is to think very carefully about taking this further and don't underestimate the enormous stress it will bring you probably for very little benefit whatsoever. It makes me so fucking angry even writing that when there is such injustice, but it is the reality.

Based on my own experience:

Remember that HR are not on your side. They work for the company not you. HR people are also employed by the same company. They have mortgages to pay too and will be reluctant to bite the hand that feeds them. They will be pressured from above.

They will try to involve colleagues and witness statements etc, these people may initially seem supportive and also think various people/ the organisation has behaved outrageously, but when push comes to shove people want to keep their head down and probably won't commit anything to writing. They also won't risk their own skin if they think the bullies will take it out on them. In a grievance, all paperwork gets copied to all parties so it can be the case that the boss sees what people have written about them.

HR will make everything just as difficult as they possibly can. They will ask you for suitable times/venues for meetings then go out of their way to find venues and times that are completely the opposite. They will cancel meetings at the last minute for spurious reasons leaving you out of pocket for childcare. They will breach their own timescales. They will find incompetent secretaries to take the minutes which then take weeks to produce and when they arrive they are grossly inaccurate and doctored. At one of my meetings I watched the secretary write nothing for 52 minutes. They won't arrange the next meeting whilst the last minutes are in dispute. For meetings they say they will provide copies of paperwork to all parties but then arrive without enough copies. All these things are designed to waste time so that there is less time to discuss the real issues. When you display the slightest emotion they will call an adjournment to allow you to 'calm down' or accuse you of rudeness. They will deliberately misspell email addresses and then claim it is a genuine admin error, this means that you have not received crucial information which could have changed matters. They will produce massive documents which miss the point for 20 pages then the real issue will be addressed right at the end by which time meeting time has run out.

They will dig up the most unbelievable background information about you which will be lies. When you point out they are lies and ask for proof you will be told to not be rude. The phrase 'personality clash' will be used a lot. In fact the whole horrible matter will probably be reduced to that. Do not expect anyone to admit to anything or to acknowledge any wrongdoing. They may agree to address any staff training issues which 'may' have occurred.

I could go on. You get the gist.

They bank on all this getting too much for you and calling a halt to it. Then the vile bullies continue to get away with it.

But a cv looks however the owner wants it to. OPs CV would just look like any other person who has been in a job for just over a year wanting something new.

And bringing a claim or taking it further wouldn't change or wipe any records unless op wanted the opportunity to have it that she resigned with immediate effect instead of dismissed, in which case there would be no claim to bring in the first place and she may even be requested to pay the PILON she received back if the company are really as crap and unscrupulous as they seem.

I'm not suggesting op would be wrong to take it further, just that suggesting she will have to inevitably discuss her dismissal is incorrect (except in certain circumstances of course but they are quite few and far between) and not helpful to the op imo.

Sorry for your horrendous experience of HR Errrrr, certainly not all HR professionals are like that, but there are a few bad eggs granted.

Definitely appeal and raise a grievance to try and address the injustice and get that colleague of yours in the shit of her own making. As part of that ask in light of the process failures and your experience that you are allowed to have resignation as reason for departure rather than dismissal- seems like least they can do

All well intentioned, but some very poor advice on here.

The advice on unfair dismissal requiring two years employment is correct. The exception to this is where you have been dismissed (directly or indirectly) due to a protected characteristic. You have no evidence to suggest that this horrid woman's actions were due to your age. Any claim on that basis will fail.

You may have a claim for wrongful dismissal, that is that the employer failed to follow contractual procedures. I would suggest that the employer will state the disciplinary process falls outside the contractual agreement. It's up to the tribunal whether they accepted this or not - it does make reference to a procedure in your contract, but the procedure itself is in the staff handbook. The staff handbook is usually (not always) outside of your employment contract. A tribunal would look at the wording of the contract, the handbook, and any other detail as to what is included in your contractual terms.

If you did win at tribunal, any award would be low. Given that they're paying your notice period, it's unlikely they'll pay more than another month's pay.

Please keep in mind that your colleague's behaviour would play very little part in the tribunal, it would only come into play if a breach of contract was established. At this point it would be used in an assessment as to whether your actions contributed to your dismissal (if they were deemed to, that would reduce your award). It sounds like they did not, but the employer may give a very different account. (I'm not suggesting that you are in the wrong, just that the tribunal will consider both sides.)

Don't rely on ACAS advice. Your initial contact is a call centre, they have no legal training beyond the information on their website.

I would appeal your dismissal based on the new evidence you have. Your employer may well want to investigate further and reconsider the actions against you. In your appeal please stick to fact, don't go talking about unfair dismissal, as any HR advisor will know that you have no action there.

If you are contacted again by this woman, please contact the police and report her for harassment.

Remember that HR are not on your side. They work for the company not you.

Excellent point. HR manage resourcing issues, from their perspective you are a resourcing issue to be managed. Keep contact to email or letter wherever possible.

I would pursue and contact CAB for advice, if you don't have a union.

Everyone should be a union member. You never know when things like this might occur.

Don't bother with CAB, they are well intentioned volunteers. If you do wish for advice you should look for an employment law solicitor that offers an initial consultation free of charge.

If you register a potential claim with ACAS and go through early conciliation, your employer may well (if you send the new evidence) reach a settlement with you, including an agreed reference and additional financial compensation, however small. That's what I would do. You could then do a tribunal claim if you wanted - but I think they would at least consider settling to avoid legal fees etc.

I'd second others about household insurance. My £25 through insurance gives me 100k cover, including employment litigation. They've paid for solicitor, barrister, tribunal fees and expert evidence. Best £25 ever spent.

@ErrrrDunno I'm sorry you've had that experience but it is unusual that you have been treated this way by a HR professional. We are not all like that. I don't think your post is at all helpful to the OP if I'm honest. It's an anecdotal experience that isn't shared by everyone who raises a complaint.

Ledbury - my home legal covered funded my whole employment case, so that's not true. It usually covers a whole range of disputes.

OP

Look at @Appraiser s post of half past two.

You have nothing to lose by sending that note. Nothing. It could also buy you a little time to have a think about next steps.

Thanks so much everyone. You're all incredibly kind to take the time to help me. Thank you daisychain for the condolences and advice.

ErrrDunno's post is what has been putting me off doing it, that and the Colleague retaliating.

The boss was very unpleasant to deal with when I attempted to get hold of the minutes. I did receive them in the end but it's not even clear they're from the same meeting, they're so vague and include no details such as date or attendees. It's much more of a summary, e.g:

'11:15 meeting starts
Informed will have to be let go and will receive notice pay.
11:20 escorted off site'

And that's it.

I will follow Appraiser's post and write an email in that format including the screenshot. Thank you Appraiser.

I won't expect to get anywhere with it but I guess it will at least mean I'll have my version of events heard. Unless they ignore it completely.

Acas suggested writing to them then if I'm not happy with their response then starting early conciliation as I had said I didn't think I could handle a tribunal.

Is there any way I can ask them to stop the colleague pursuing me? They've chosen to believe and protect her which has only given her more fuel to cause me further upset so it's only fair they should be partly responsible for her actions. Or is that just wishful thinking?

Feeling a bit of a twit as I don't even know who my home insurance is with never mind where to start searching for the policy so will ask DH when he gets home.

Ignoring all the totally incorrect advice - you asked what would someone else do.

For me, I'd walk away and find another job.

I represent employers at tribunal, it's really stressful for claimants. And in this case you might get a few weeks pay, IF you win (and no matter what ACAS said, they too are often wrong, it's by no means sure you would - it would come down to the exact wording of how the disc policy is mentioned in the contract. I write employment contracts, no-one who does that is stupid enough to make a disciplinary policy contractual).

It would be worth speaking to any legal hotline you have access to, for your own peace of mind.

But, for me, I think it's better to look to the future and more positive things, and try to move on.

You will find another job you love and will be good at it. She will always be a nasty cow.

If she's harassing you, speak to the police. The ex employer cannot control her behaviour.

If she's sending messages from her work account it is. But I suspect it's all Facebook.

Definitely bring a claim but make sure that you get a proper lawyer (most employment lawyers are idiots who have no idea what they are doing) and don't try to do it yourself. If your claim is screwed up not only will you not get anything but you will also have to pay costs. Where abouts do you live? I may be able to reccomend someone.

You have been treated appallingly and every "that's so unfair" bone in my body would make me want to defend myself and try and right the wrong.

however to do so will only bring you misery and upset. This woman is a true little cancer, spreading her evil wherever she goes. It does seem that she will stop at nothing and therefore to protect yourself and put yourself first, I would say to steer well clear.

Keep hold of the Facebook screenshot but don't do anything with it. I think if you sent it off with a little "FYI" to anyone, it will reignite her vengeful bitch side and could risk your future happiness. That woman is a devious sly bitch and no "discipline" from HR or anyone else is going to change that. If she can be as spiteful and damaging when you've done nothing to antagonise her, imagine what she would do if you did?

A company that chooses to be held to ransom by a bully, which ignores its own procedures and which deals in lies is not one which should sap your future happiness or prospects.

Cut loose. Sooner or later that cancer of a woman will be instrumental in its demise.

And for your dad. Although her comment about the certificate is disgusting, those colleagues who saw it will know the cloth she's cut from.

If you were to bring a claim for wrongful dismissal (i.e. dismissal in breach of your contract) bear the following in mind:

1. They will argue the disciplinary procedure is not contractual.
2. They will argue that even if it is contractual they were not bound to follow it because your dismissal was not a disciplinary sanction, it was a business decision made in response to the fact that it became clear two employees could not work together and it was decided that one therefore needed to go, and they used "last in first out" to decide.
3. They will argue that even if it was a disciplinary sanction, and even if the procedure was contractual, your only financial loss incurred was the length of extra time it would have taken to convene a disciplinary hearing rather than dismiss you on the spot, i.e. a few days' pay.

I think you should appeal their decision anyway though because you have nothing to lose by doing so. You might get some money possibly, or at least an agreed reference.

Agree with flowery

There is disproportionate hassle with a claim to achieve very little. Make a fuss by all means as part of appeal but as you don't want to go back there is then draw a line under it and move on.

Just wanted to say how awful

I think that you should appeal the decision with the company but maybe not take it as far as a tribunal. You will at least have had your say and may not feel as aggreived