The 'truth' about life as a working mother

[phdlife]

Just wondered what others made of the Equalities Review findings (and especially Madeleine Bunting's G2 feature) published yesterday?
Am I the only woman who finds it hugely depressing to be told (yet again!) that having kids "marks, at best, a plateau in their career - treading water - at worst, its abrupt end"? That "working mothers are left with the worst of both worlds"?
Certainly I was pushed by circumstances into a rather more acute choice than most ppl have to make, but I've coped by hoping that something, somewhere down the line, will work out. Otherwise I can only pray that all my ambition will get squeezed out along with the placenta - a thought that makes me unbearably sad given all the effort I've put in so far. I want the baby and I accept it's going to change things, but I can't envisage being happy to drop out or 'tread water'.
Sorry to be gloomy - this has just raised hairy issues I've been trying to ignore as I don't know any career-oriented women with kids, and frankly I could use a little inspiration rather than yet another reminder of "the brutal truth" [hopeful].

I think the lack of part time work and lower status associated with it is highly problematic and depressing

I could give you reassurance as an academic, but that's quite a special case really- I just thought it might be relevant, given your nickname. Let me know if you want my story

Phdlife, I sympathise: I was absolutely terrified during my first pregnancy that this was the end to my 'career' (such as it is); worse, in fact, that I would become the sort of person everyone told me I'd become, to whom work just didn't matter any more by comparison with my beautiful baby.

Six years later, I have managed quite well - listen, CAT me or suchlike, or I'll be back, because this is in fact my 'day off' with my three year old and I have a poorly six year old as well and they are at my elbows being the stuff of your nightmares...but hey, get in touch or I'll be back here.
xx

Tamum, I'd like to hear your story

[small hi-jack] Tamum - you've given me various bits of advice about academia in the past - well I bit the bullet this week and put in an application for a full on lecturer's job. I spoke to the head of dept and he did say I'd be at a disadvantage but it was worth a go. Am fed up of pissing about with other people's silly problems when I want the time to define and explore my own. probably won;t even get an interview...[hi-jack over]

phdlife - I think what you need to inspire you is hoslitic stories that include that lesser known species in these debates about parenting and professional life - men. Think about the whole issue in terms of your whole family. think about what you and your family can do together to achieve a balance and a have equally satisfying careers - difficult but it so helps any sense of despair to remember taht it's not just about us women!

Oh well done hatwoman, good luck with it

Oh blimey Kathy, I've probably made it sound more interesting than it really is. Have to go and pick up dd now but will be back to report

Well I think every persons story will be a different one and therefore people will make different choices.

On the off-chance that you might think like me - and be interested in how my career panned out post children - here is my story

I have worked since having my DCs who are now 8 and 6yo, except for a short break following redundancy.

I would say that the baby years were definitely difficult. The fall off the 'track' was difficult to handle at times and my motivation and probably self-esteem took a nose dive. I think I became totally invisible to the organisation during these 3 years.

I took the redundancy really expecting that to be it, to spend some years as a SAHM before getting back into the work place. However, staying at home drove me almost to the pits of despair - probably the one and only time in my entire life where I would describe myself as 'depressed'.

So back into the workplace I went - changed firms and discovered a new 'track'. I moved into a more niche area than I had previously been in and really found that things started to flourish again. Promotions etc followed and I am now on a par or ahead of most of my contemporaries from the pre-baby years.

I think my message to you as you embark on your new life of juggling motherhood and career, is to keep your eye on the long term. Make whatever moves you need to make to keep your career at least ticking over during the baby years. Then when you find your ambition/drive/motivation again you are in a position to play catch up. I so very nearly opted out completely and I don't think I would ever have made it back in again, which I would have regretted sorely

I would agree with most of Madeleine Bunting's article. Including in academia (where I work). Phrases like "plateau" and "treading water" hit home with how I'm working these days.

It doesn't have to be that bad but in the end, even if you still have the ambition, drive, love of your job, etc, which I'd say I do, it's rather inevitable that the more you (and your partner) are working in paid work, the less your children are going to see of you. Which some people mind more than others. My children are still younger than some of the others on this thread, my youngest is 2, so maybe that's why I sound a bit less upbeat about the treading water as I still can't see an end to that phase.

Am freaked by women professors I know, in my field I work with a lot, and they are all, without exception, working crazy hours and very stressed. It's not encouraging.

Unfortunately, as a part-time working mother, I can only say that the report was pretty spot on.
All my friends who have had good careers (lawyers/accountants/marketing/pr), myself included & who have choosen to go part-time are either "treading water" or have taken demotions.
And I have friends whose career make part-time almost impossible: IT sales for example.
I think less financially orientated roles and public sector roles are probably less ruthless than the private sector & you stand a better chance of maintaining a career.

I am in the public sector and treading water is a fair description of where I am at too.

I found that having a second child was the bigger issue for me in terms of how I managed the balance between work and home life - I found the first two years of motherhood easy in comparison - changed jobs for a more demanding role when ds was one and managed to be promoted in that organisation before I had dd.

Once I had two the juggling became more diffcult and I began to work at home more regularly - this made me less visible to the organisation, I have also missed out on doing high profile projects because I have not wanted to be in a position where I have had to sacrifice my time at home.

I am in a redundancy situation at work now and my holy grail is a more flexible role which will give me some creativity and job satisfaction whilst working fewer hours and I am prepared to take a substantial drop in salary to achieve this (even so, dream on puddle. My children are now 7 and 4 and if anything need me around more now than when they were younger.

I had a terrible time from work both during and after maternity leave 6 years ago and I ended up with a compromise agreement as they knew i had good grounds to sue. I was a senior manager at the time, having spent 6 years gaining 2 professional qualifications. I also had pnd.

I then went to another company at a lower level and it suited me fine, I have gone on to have another 2 children whilst with them and I was granted part time of 3 days a week after my second. I dread going back this time as my boss is pathetic and I can't bear working for him anymore.

I have been getting a lot of interest in my CV, for senior roles but I am not holding out much hope of finding one that is part time. I think I will have to accept that its a sacrifice. I could go full time and have a fab job on good money or just poodle along at a lower level but be part time.

Sadly, you don't get the choice sometimes but I feel all my experience and quals are wasted at times.

I think I would say I always was a career woman before kids came along, I wanted to get as high up as possible to earn as much money as possible. I also felt that it would be easier going back in at a higher level (having already been there) after having a family rather than going back to a career after a break and trying to work my way up with young kids.

I dont' think there is an answer, I also think you don't know what its like until after you have had the baby. A career might be the last thing on your mind then.

Right, the Inferiorettes are watching something presumably vaguely suitable on the telly so I'm back

I think Soapbox's advice is very good, about keeping your eye on the long term. My situation was rather different, because I had gone freelance (I'm a journalist) a few years before, so the pressures were different - although I'd say they were about equivalent, as for the first four years of DD1's life I was the bigger earner.

I do find it wearing, keeping it all together. And in my household, like many - probably, unfortunately, most - I do end up the default 'in charge' person more of the time than I would like, although my children's father is a pretty active co-parent (he'd say things were not quite equal, I'd say a bit less. This is rather standard, I find).

When both Inferiorettes are in school next January I plan to spread four days' work over five, finishing most days at 3.30. I really am not sure how that will go. I do hope it pans out, as rather to my surprise I have found that I do like being around my adorable daughters.

I also agree with hatwoman that you need to work with your dp to think about the issue from a family perspective. For us that meant that we have both reduced our hours at times to make the work/life balance thing work.

Sopabox's advice about planning long term is very sound, the only thing I would say is that until ds started school I thought everything would be easier once they were 5. More fool me.

I agree with the others about expecting/talking to your DP about how HE will reduce or rearrange his workload as well as you. That will make things a lot easier. Also if he's supportive of your career.

I have found things got easier when they reached school age (mine are 6, 5 and 2) in terms of going away for a few days with work, say, or just in terms of them not being as demanding (my older 2 are definitely less demanding than when they were pre-schoolers).

But even then, as Motherinferior says, you still might even want to spend time with them, and maybe won't want to spend the weekends and evenings juggling childcare and work with your partner.

I do still really really enjoy my job, would do it for no money, and would hate to give it up. so maybe my first post was a little gloomy. it's only when I look at the wider career picture and the implications of treading water for so long that I get a bit fed up.

I'm not in academia, but since returnong to work from ML I've transferred to a new department, won a promotion and hope to soon be embarking on a management diploma course - all very much backed & supported by work. I realise that I am very, very lucky. Juggling work & home can be a bit hard, but DH does what he can to help at home (it's difficult with his job) and Ds seems to be doing fine at the moment...........

always interesting to mull these things over on mn...Thinking about my own experience I do think it's very difficult to measure how "well" you're doing (possibly more so in some sectors than others) because there are always plateaus -so working out why you;ve plateaued is difficult.

I am not entirely sure about my own experience. inbetween dd1 and dd2 arriving I got a job in my organisation (which is in the top 2 in its field -some rank it no1 others no2) which was at the standard plateau level - by which I mean a natural plateau for lots of people, regardless of whether they have kids or not. Once you've got to that point people tend to go one of three ways - either they stay there for life getting stunningly brilliant at what they do, becoming one of the experts in their field, widely respcted within and outside the organisation - but not formally acknowledged or remunerated accordingly. or they coast (tend to find them in the pub at lunchtime). or they go into management.

Given that "progression" of the first type is quite nebulous anyway it's particularly hard to ascertain the effect of working 3 days a week on my good self. My feeling is that I've missed out on external networking. By being good at what I do I've "progressed" in that I know people within the organisation think well of me but I haven't had the chance to put myself about. I get on with a limited number of tasks and am known to do them well. Now both dds are at ft school I'm trying to remedy this - but it's proving a lot more difficult than I thought. My days "off" - during which time I'm meant to be writing, getting teaching work and building an alterntive "career" (there's a name for this, it escapes me, multi something or other) are rapidly disappearing under a pile of washing, World Book day costumes and guilt.

I think that support - and genuine support - from your partner is probably crucial. My partner works a standard week, and does do some evening stuff occasionally; and I would say that sense he's been able to progress his career in ways that I haven't found possible; but in fact he's been entirely supportive of my shift, recently, to an office based job for part of the week and to those few evening things I do take on.

And most important, to me, is the sense that my job/career carries equal weight within our relationship, which certainly hasn't been the case in previous ones.

The thing about being a working mum is that you're doing two jobs - and that's always going to be harder than one. I took a few months off after the birth of both children, and have paid a fortune in childcare over the years - but I'm now in a job I love with a great salary. I doubt that that would have happened if I'd worked PT or taken my eye off the ball career-wise. Yes, it's been very hard, but dh is very supportive and does more than half of the childcare and running the home. It's actually been easier since I got promoted a few years ago - even though I'm working longer hours, I self-schedule, so can arrange my diary around time for parents' evenings etc, and can work from home if one of the children is sick. I don't abuse this though - I'm very dedicated to my job because I love it. For various reasons we've never had much support from our own parents - financial or otherwise. The tips I'd pass on would be to recruit as much help from people around you, particularly other parents (on a reciprocal basis); relax your standards around the house; pay for as much help as you can afford, going for the best childcare you can manage, and don't feel guilty as long as your know in your heart that your children are happy. I'd agree with working out what your long-term goal is. The other thing is to look after yourself physically - sensible diet, time to relax and have fun - because it's too easy to burn-out.

I agree with MI that the equal weight thing re: jobs is crucial. I think it's easy to achieve if, as in my case, you are the higher earner or equal.

A lot of my female friends feel their DPs don't value their jobs because they are not rewarded as well financially. So when a child is ill it's always the mother who has to reschedule becasue her job is the one the family can most afford to lose.

Hatwoman makes good points about working out what success means from your perspective.

do you know what's quite frightening about my 3 way analysis of what people in my org do once they reach a certain level? A fairly wild generalisation but I have just realised that, on the whole, it's the women who stay at that level and become brilliant, whereas the men either go to the pub or into management. That so reflects a number of theories about risk taking and about distribution of attributes (of any sort) by gender. (you know women get 2:1s mens gets thirds and firsts; male birds are colourful or black, female ones are brown....) [i'm off to thrown all old copies of New Scientist out...]

Treading water is about it . However I was OK until I went part-time after my third child. Work makes up less of my life and everyone I work with seem to think that I am no longer committed. Problem is that now I have some dounts about the security of my job and having been 'treading water' for a few years I'm finding the prospect of moving on quite daunting.

I think you have to be quite determined, find excellent childcare so that you feel 100% happy that your baby is OK, and maybe stick to 1 or 2. Baby 3 was the watershed for me.

It's also perfectly possible - on a good day, for a brief sunny moment, admittedly - to feel one has the best of both worlds.

I like my work. I am fairly good at it, and people pay me to write stuff. I also have two adorable daughters (who are still downstairs watching something presumably suitable, I trust) who have enhanced my life and its wellbeing (and my waistline) enormously. And yes I have to hold it all together, mainly by bellowing loudly and trying to ignore all the people who think I shouldn't enjoy work, but I wouldn't want to be without either bit of my life.

Haven't read the findings in your link, just your summary as per your OP.

My career was on the ascendant before I had my first child. Had a department of 500 plus staff and a budget of >£20M. Next step was Board level director. Role was high stress but stimulating and challenging.

I took a pay cut, a substantial drop in grade and part time hours on returning post baby....and I finally dropped the job entirely to be a SAHM around a year after having 2nd child.

The part time work I did post first baby was dull and of peripheral importance.

I personally feel - for me at least (some women manage it) that it is not possible to have a dynamic career and devote my energies to parenting. Again for me at least (and I stress that part before head gets bitten off)I could not do both properly and something would have to give.

That is why I willingly took a drop in hours, salary and grade post childbirth - because I wanted a simple job that I could 'forget' when at home with the children. However, I found that simple job so profoundly boring that I couldn't be arsed to do it any longer (and fortunately we don't need my salary) so make the transition to full time SAHM

It is difficult, isn't it - because yes, I think one does need a fairly interesting job to justify the hassle, but interesting jobs also often involve hassle...