"it is unacceptable for men or women to call in because a child is sick in my view."

[hunkermunker]

Xenia says "it is unacceptable for men or women to call in because a child is sick in my view."

I am interested to know what other people do in this situation.

yes Fairymum and much more replaceable unfortunately

attitudes like this from people further up the career ladder are the stuff of nightmares for people trying to work and bring up kids on a limited income

Do you think that one of the reasons parents may have less time off sick is because they want to keep their sick record low, and keep the possibility of pulling a sickie in case of child being sick and having 'run out' of other entitlement? So they come in even when they feel like crap, so they don't 'use up' a sick day that could be used for a childcare emergency...

Did that make any sense? I know what I'm trying to say...and it's just a thought...

think you're right jessa

in my case certainly

I would be very interested to know what the alternative would be. If my DCs are sick, I have to take care of them. They cannot (nor should not) be farmed out to someone else just so I can do my precious job. These are the things you consider when you have children. If they do not come first during their dependent years, do not have them. Look up the word 'dependent' if you are struggling to understand its meaning.

me too

also I know that I can't 'make hours up' as I can only work the hours I have childcare for, so I can't work later in the week or into the evening if I do have time off earlier in the week to make up time on a project

Mama's example is someone in what I called "special jobs" which as I said is different. You are paid a lot and you sort out your personal life. Also to get in those jobs you have to be much better at whatever that work is than anyone else, you probably love your work. I don't think it means you love your children less however.

Chickenpox was on the other thread this one sprung out of. I never stayed at home with a child with chickenpox (I never had one hospitalised from it which would have been different). A nanny or granny or husband can look after a child with chickenpox. Some mothers would feel they had to be there and others not. May be it's just how you feel inside sometimes too. When one of my children was in hospital we were both working (it was only tonsils out) at lot of the time and neither of us took the time she was inside off work. We certainly visited her but neither of us felt justified in taking time off not even holiday and she was fine about it too. Her nanny and siblings were in there etc during the working day and she had a great time.

Other point if you slack off and lie to employers and let your co workers and clients down then you 're nver really going to be doing very well at work which of course suits a lot of people fine but there is a fairly direct correlation between promotion and the effort you put in.

Certainly agree with the real example of checking time sheets etc and parents. Most parents I have worked with haven't been pretending they are sick all the time. They make more not less effort to be in work. For many parents if they lose a job it's disastrous as they have a mortage to pay and children to support whereas single people can say fine I'll go an dwork in a bar in Ibiza for 6 months. This makes parents better not worse workers. On the other hand you get someone having children who uses that as an excuse for hardly ever being in work -depends on the person. We've probably seen people in both categories - those bending over backwards to get to work and those using every excuse under the sun, tiny little sniffle from the baby and they can't possibly go into work.

But if you look at it from an employers point of view.

Who would you rather employ? a man or a woman with a child?

the man will be here day in day out without fail or the woman who younever know if she will need to run out half way through a meeting because johnny is being sick?

You may well feel sorry for the mother as you have been in her place but your a struggling business and every time she has a day off it costs YOU money. be it in paying the rest of the staff overtime to complete the job or in getting a temp in to cover.

in an ideal world we wopuld be paid to care for our own kids until they were 7 and then only return to work between 10-2 so that we can be there for our children.
Unfortunatly we don't live in an ideal world. and what Xenia was trying to say is that especially in HER world a woman needs to be even more cut throat than normal.

Why set out on a career ladder if you have no desire to get to the top...is what i think she was trying to say.

Have been thnking of other hardcore career women I know and they make Xenia look like Julie Andrews. I know someone who phoned in work and said she would be off today as she was going for a n abortion as she thought thatwas more acceptable than saying she had flu!

grr stop debating...i need to go out

Not read the whole debate but have to say this sort of attitude doesn't encourage me back into the workplace. We don't have family nearby, and I really don't think that is so unusual, nor do we have the funds for a nanny or au pair to be on standby. I understand the inconvenience from a purely business pov but you only get the best out of people - and recruit and retain good staff - if you can give a little in return. Invest in people as well as the business.

For the record, I have held very responsible jobs with some very high profile employers, and I could count on one hand the number of times I have felt I have let someone down by not being at work. I am a woman, I am a mother but I am also a bloody good employee. I agree with Xenia that it is definitely an individual thing - you cannot generalise woman/mother = unreliable worker who will take at least one day a week off for a family emergency. I could accomplish more in a couple of hours at work than many colleagues, and would never turn up hungover and inept on a Monday morning, but if my child is sick (and I mean sick, not got a bit of a sniffle) then surely the least I can expect is a small amount of compassion and understanding that I must look after her. Otherwise, I would have no choice but to leave the workplace and become a SAHM, and that would be more of a loss to my employer than the odd day caring for a sick child. Fortunately, my employers have also regarded it as such.

Hear Hear GrumpyOldHorsewoman

DH works with a bloke who constantly stinks of booze, is always late in. Single & Childless.

DH is far more productive despite the occasional day off for a sick child. His colleagues recognise that and so nobody minds.

You took the words right out of my mouth themildmanneredjanitor!

janitor, i'm sorry i don't think that is fair, xenia has posted elsewhere about her love of story/bedtimes among other times with her children. 2 weeks off is the minimum legal maternity leave and i really don't think it's that long since that was all the paid maternity leave there was. may still be the same in the US?

even if you are working full-time most parents are with their children for more hours per week than any paid childcarer.

and although i don't think this applies to xenia, the 'decision' to have children can be anything from a moment of hormonal weakness after a good day, or a few bevvies too many! for the lucky fertile ones that is.

I think that questioning whether or not Xenia should have had kids or not isn't fair

the main problem I have with her is the assumption that her way is right and SAHM's and part-timers who have stepped sideways off the career ladder are boring victims of societal pressure and lunacy

I wouldn't want Xenia's experience of parenting, no, not in a million years. And she has made it quite clear that she wouldn't want mine. But everyone has their right to parent the way they want to but not to tell others that their way is somehow inferior

I imagine that she has 5 children because she loves them and cares for them. Love and care may be dispensed in a way you don't approve or agree with - but it doesn't mean they aren't loved or cared for.

Do people generally assume that it is open to question why fathers have 5 children when they don't spend all day every day with them, because dammit someone has to go out and bring home the bacon!

Do adults really love their mothers that much more than their fathers because their mother stayed at home while their father went out to work?

I know I don't!

Fairymums point about parents having 1/3 of the time off as non parents is very interesting.

I can see that employers would get peed off if their staff were continually off for childrens illness, or if someone who before they had children didn't take much time off and suddenly was continually off allegedly for their own illness. However as a manager I also know that I am more peeved by those who in my team happen to be single, childless and male who have random repeated five day illnesses just short enough not to require a doctors note.

Someone also made the point about keeping some spare days, I have bought the maximum number of flex days which are reserved as days in case DS gets sick, but I also am lucky enough to have GPs as back up.

I would imagine that most managers in the real world, although perhaps not the super high flying high powered business world that I don't know much about, would be sympathetic to a parent male or female who required the very occasional day off for their childs sickness, if they weren't then I can't imagine many people would want to work for them.

Life happens and if as a manager they had expectations that everyone who works for them would have a 100% attendance record then they are just not being realistic. I returned last week to work and unfortunately on the second day a major family crisis occurred my boss immediately told me to go home, as it turned out I didn't need to, but by her attitude she has gained loyalty from me and a desire not to be off work unless I really have to.

I cannot put ds into his nursery if he has been sick within the last 12 hours.

I do sometimes wonder how Xenia thinks the rest of us live, although I do think it is not fair that people pick up on a comment she's made and then makes a thread around that. She has some extreme views but that does not mean she has to be picked on for that.

If she annoyed me I would say something on the relevant thread, not make another up about it.

Sorry Hunker, but I do have to disagree with you on this one.

Many men and women choose to work when their children are under 5 in the uk (most actually). They have decided like me that they won't be around from 9 - 5pm so yes you do then obviously not do what you would otherwise be doing with the children during those hours. I don't think that really means you're not a proper parent. Other parents would say if you aren't phuysically attached to your baby and sleep with it then you're missing out - continuum concept. We are all differnt in the boundaries and levels of contact we have. My sister has never in 5 years not put her children to bed. Many stay at home mothers are happy to delegate that so they can go out at night, may be even once a week. I don't sit here judging people as long as they're not damaging their chidlren but I suppose we all draw our own lines.

I think boarding school at 7 for example is damaging to most children. I also think parents both working as long as the child care is good is not damaging to most children. I also think so stay at home parents are not the best people to look after their children, do a terribly job and are cross all the times. Others are brilliant at it.

I think in 22 years I've probably spent a lot of time with my children. I am more than happy to delegate the washing or most of it but I think close relationships with anyone, a child, a dog, a husband, a relative come about through contact and you don't get emotionally close to those you don't see. I suppose it's just a question of degree.

Hear hear rookiemum. I have the best attendance record of anyone in my office. I haven't had a single sick day off for about 4 years, or ever let the boss down on a deadline.

However, I have had about three days off over that time to cover emergency cover for dd's illnesses. DH has had about the same.

Over the years I have covered people with or without children who have been off for a number of genuine reasons (alcoholism, caring for elderly parents, compassionate leave, long periods of sickness) and I have never resented it. Why should anyone begrudge me an odd day off?

Children being sick is no different from any of the other inconvenient but real life issues that make people miss work.

..obviously I agree with soapbox... as to why I had children I really wanted them from about age 14. I also wanted to work. I am very lucky I could do both and I am still enjoying having spread this over age 22 up to now 45 and that I still have gorgeous little boys who hug me. Most women only have that over about 5 - 8 years but you can continue this if you have a big family and spread it out. I could see much less of the children if I chose but I like to be with them, but not all the time. 3 are now 18 or over. Remember most of your life and relationship with your children they are adults so in a sense you're building up relationships for that stage. This is what is so sad about my children's father never contacting the older ones. He misses out completely.