Meet the Other Phone. Protection built in.

Meet the Other Phone.
Protection built in.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Work

Chat with other users about all things related to working life on our Work forum.

I am a director, who is my employer?

93 replies

nocontrol · 23/07/2014 19:40

I will try and cut this long story short, but it is quite complicated.

I am a director of a company, along with one other person, who is based in a different office about 200 miles away. We are a very small company of 9 employees, created out of a former group of companies - which are now all separate companies running separately and nothing to do with each other, apart from sharing office premises (the office 200 miles away)

I was informed today, by one of the shareholders, that a letter would be going out to all staff tomorrow informing us all (2 directors included) that we are at risk of redundancy. She would say no more than that, she said her hands were tied, and I imagine she shouldn't have even told me that much, but as we have known each other for a while, she felt personally obliged to give me and the other director the heads-up.

Neither myself nor the other director had any idea this was coming - although the business is not making loads of money, we are "washing our faces" which is what we were tasked with when our company was split off from the others. We have no cashflow issues (although things are tight) and have had no need to go to the shareholders for cash injections for about 18 months. We have all worked hard to make the business work and all of our plans and projections suggest that we can do just that.

As with all small businesses, we accept that things are not set in stone, and that things can change rapidly, however, we (2 directors) have been feeling fairly optimistic over the recent months.

Apart from reporting back to them informally on an irregular basis, the shareholders (who are not direct shareholders in our company, it is owned by an offshore company which is then owned by them) have had nothing to do with the running of the company, so for them to swoop in and do this out of the blue has absolutely knocked me sideways.

They want me to let staff know tomorrow and then the letters will be emailed and posted tomorrow. However, my fellow director is away on holiday until Monday evening and we both feel strongly that a) the message should be delivered in person, rather than me phoning people up to tell them (which is the only alternative while she's away) and b) as we are the only 2 directors of the company, we are the people who should be making decisions about this, not 3 remote people who obviously have other agendas.

Trying to asses the legalities of this (with no expertise whatsoever) and having looked at redundancy processes online, I would like to know who is our employer? You would expect letters like this to be written by directors - but we haven't written them. If it is "the employer's" decision to put people at risk of redundancy and we as directors aren't acting as "the employer" who else has the right to make this decision? Can the shareholders legally do this completely independently of the directors?

I've been told the plan is to have consultation meetings for my office next Wednesday, and they do have a legal person involved, but I would like to be as well equipped as possible before my conversation with the shareholder tomorrow. At the very least, we want to get the letters stopped until the other director is back from her holiday and can see people face to face.

I'm sorry this is so long, I would be very grateful for any thoughts people may have.

OP posts:
unlucky83 · 24/07/2014 20:32

The company may have legal cover in their insurance policy ...if they do they should have a legal advice line. Somebody should be running the companies actions with regard to the staff past that advice line - otherwise the legal cover might be void...
If you don't have legal cover/advice through the insurance but are a member of the Federation of Small businesses they used to have a free legal advice service...failing that ACAS -but that will be non specific advice.

senua · 24/07/2014 21:01

we have all been offered garden leave ... I can't decide what to do

Who has signed the letters and in what capacity? If you go along with it (gardening leave) does it imply some acceptance of the situation?

atticusclaw · 24/07/2014 21:21

Do NOT take the Company cheque book.

I know this is a difficult situation for you but you are getting some shockingly bad advice on here. Don't take advice from a group of people on the internet who don't actually know what they're talking about. Get legal advice. You need an appointment with an employment lawyer (and possibly with some input from a corporate colleague) at a decent firm. If you PM me I'll give you a recommendation.

nocontrol · 24/07/2014 21:35

I have been offered garden leave & can take it if I want or not. As far as I know, nothing will be implied from either course of action. Unfortunately, I can't bear to think of clients phoning in and not being able to talk to someone. 4 days with no-one manning the phones could finish things. My staff have decided to take a "one out, all out" approach so they will not be in. I told them that I understand & the decision was entirely theirs.

I have phoned a legal helpline (through my household insurance). Advice was quite generic, but she raised a couple of interesting points for me to consider.

I asked if I was within my rights to ask to take into the meeting someone who is neither a colleague nor a trade-union rep. I don't have a union rep, and as all other colleagues at my location report directly in to me, I don't particularly want them to sit in on my meeting. I don't think it's appropriate. I would like someone in with me though, as I don't want to take notes as well as be the "subject" of the meeting. If they won't allow someone else in with me, she suggested I could ask to record the meeting.

Also, I asked whether I could be compelled to be involved in the process of selecting other members of staff (eg providing information to be used in a scoring matrix, or indeed, producing the matrix). She says that unless it specifically says so in my contract then I don't have to be involved, in fact it would be inappropriate as I am subject to the redundancy process.

I am thinking I should get face to face legal advice though (can't really afford it, but can I afford not to?). However, I will not be taking the company cheque book along...

OP posts:
ChaChaChaChanges · 24/07/2014 22:04

So your staff haven't been offered garden leave?

FFS try to convince them to work.

First, it may just save the business, and with it your job. Which you still don't actually know is on the line.

Secondly, it protects each of them personally from being sacked.

Look, I know you're in a horrible position, but you need to start thinking rationally and professionally in your own best interests.

ABlandAndDeadlyCourtesy · 24/07/2014 22:09

"Also, I asked whether I could be compelled to be involved in the process of selecting other members of staff (eg providing information to be used in a scoring matrix, or indeed, producing the matrix). She says that unless it specifically says so in my contract then I don't have to be involved, in fact it would be inappropriate as I am subject to the redundancy process."

Would be interested in Atticus or flowery's thoughts on this but you and the other employees may not be in the same process.

You and your fellow director may be in a process where up to one FTE director may be made redundant, the others may be in a process where up to X FTE Managers/Analsyts/Tea Sellers are to be shed. If you are not "threatened" by the outcome of their process, you may well be asked to provide input.

nocontrol · 24/07/2014 22:10

No, everyone has been offered garden leave. Sorry I didn't make that clear.

So I think everything else you said isn't relevant?

OP posts:
nocontrol · 24/07/2014 22:19

We have all had exactly the same letter. So, to my way of thinking we are all in the same boat.

The letter says fundamental technical & organisational changes are required. So covering themselves to get rid of any one of us.

No indication as to what the process will be after the initial meeting.

The meetings in my office are scheduled for 12:15, 12:30, 12:45 & 1:00 next Wed. They obviously don't see the need to offer people the courtesy of any real time for discussion...

OP posts:
ChaChaChaChanges · 24/07/2014 22:23

Yes, if garden leave is offered then I don't think they would be sacked.

All taking it won't help the business though.

The meetings in my office are scheduled for 12:15, 12:30, 12:45 & 1:00 next Wed. They obviously don't see the need to offer people the courtesy of any real time for discussion...

Sounds like 4 out of 9 will be made refundant.

In my extensive experience of mass redundancies, people don't want long discussions in work immediately. They want to get out, deal with their shock, and be with their families. The firm also had to protect itself - disgruntled employees can't be allowed back to their desks for fear of sabotage (and, yes, that does happen).

ABlandAndDeadlyCourtesy · 24/07/2014 22:32

That may be four groups of redundancy consultations though, with a few in each group.

Chacha, as those are the first meetings, wouldn't they be the group consultations?

Anyway, one good thing is that the letters are out and you are not feeling stuck in the middle.

nocontrol · 24/07/2014 22:41

No, they are individual meetings. There are only 4 of us in our office.

Next thing will be them asking me to organise a meeting room when I point out tomorrow that our office is just one room with desks in it. The shareholder has never been to this office so obviously has just assumed we have meetings rooms.

My heart tells me to tell her and let her sort it. My head says that would be cutting off my nose to spite my (& my colleagues' face)

OP posts:
caroldecker · 24/07/2014 22:45

Please read this as it lays out the procedures for removing you as a director. This is very important as you have various responsibilities as a director and you need to CYA. I would consider resigning as a director, whilst staying on as an employee, then they can treat you as the other staff.

Directors responsibilities:
A director of a company must act in the way he considers, in good faith, would be most likely to promote the success of the company for the benefit of its members as a whole, and in doing so have regard (amongst other matters) to—
(a)the likely consequences of any decision in the long term,
(b)the interests of the company's employees,
(c)the need to foster the company's business relationships with suppliers, customers and others,
(d)the impact of the company's operations on the community and the environment,
(e)the desirability of the company maintaining a reputation for high standards of business conduct, and
(f)the need to act fairly as between members of the company.

ABlandAndDeadlyCourtesy · 24/07/2014 22:45

If all are on gardening leave, you will just be in at your time and then go, right?

ABlandAndDeadlyCourtesy · 24/07/2014 22:46

If you don't go on leave, go first or last and take lunch whilst the others do theirs?

nocontrol · 24/07/2014 23:09

I am going to try & get legal advice from the people that atticus has recommended, as u have had different advice in here about the fact Im a director to that which I had from the (very general & generic) helpline I called.

With the meetings, there isn't even anywhere to wait if you arrive for your meeting before the prior one has finished (well, in the car, I guess). But I will wait & see what is said tomorrow.

OP posts:
ABlandAndDeadlyCourtesy · 24/07/2014 23:12

Glad you are getting RL advice, good luck.

nocontrol · 07/08/2014 20:31

I thought I would update in case there's anyone out there who was wondering what happened in the end.

The "consultation" meetings were held in the other office on the Tuesday (29 July) & in our office on the Wednesday.

The shareholder who accompanied the employment lawyer didn't really say much, although more in the meetings with the directors than with the staff. I think she was shocked to find that the business is in a good shape, with strong and dedicated staff who had turned it around and started to really make the business grow and have a positive future.

However, I think she also realised that by taking this action, they had killed the business dead. I told her that I saw this as a vote of no confidence in the directors by the shareholders, and that I obviously wouldn't be able to continue as a director whether or not I was made redundant. She said that concern had been raised following a meeting the directors had with the shareholders in May (as we thought). However, she said that the concern was about the direction of the business and future profitability.

Neither I, nor my fellow director have any memory of the future growth of the business being discussed, nor of them asking us anything about any plans we had, what our strategy was etc. Indeed, the meeting was called at our request, and other meetings we have tried to have with them (to update them) in the past have been cut short or cancelled.

I didn't use the words "bullshit" but that is what I was thinking.

Anyway, they took 2 days to put together all of the information from the meetings, had a meeting last Friday at 3pm, and at around 5:30pm on Friday, I had a call to say all of us in my office, and all but 2 of the people (2 admin people) in the other office were being made redundant. Reading between the lines of what she said (& what I think she wanted me to understand) there had been long and protracted discussions / arguments about the best course of action to take, but at the end of the day, I think she realised, and persuaded the others, that as they had taken this course so far, they needed to continue with it - no-one would be sticking around anyway, even if they decided to change nothing.

I actually think that the other 2 shareholders would have liked to have done nothing, and saved themselves the redundancy payments - just getting rid of us by natural wastage, but she persuaded them that that would be the wrong way to conclude this.

So, I have been given a fairly decent package - enough to keep me going until the end of the year, plus I have kept all IT equipment I already had (as part of my role) and have been given a (Mac) computer from my office.

By the time she phoned and told me, I felt nothing but relief. I was very scared that they would get rid of everyone else, try and change everything about the servicing we offer the clients, and get me to manage it remotely from home. That would have been awful.

I do feel bad for the other members of staff, although they have also been given fair packages, and I feel bad for our clients, who had a week of no telephones or emails being answered, and having to leave voicemails...they will not get the service they have been used to, and many of them are elderly people who will find this quite distressing. That is something I do not agree with at all, but I have just had to walk away from that, which has not been nice.

So, I am taking a bit of time to chill (kids are not particularly thrilled I will be around during the summer holidays) & then concentrate on finding something else - I have already got my CV with some recruiters, so just need to find the right thing to move on to.

Sorry this is epic, but thought it was right to "end the story".

OP posts:
ABlandAndDeadlyCourtesy · 07/08/2014 20:58

Glad that is has resolved in at least a somewhat workable fashion but sorry you've lost out after all your hard work Flowers

New posts on this thread. Refresh page
Swipe left for the next trending thread